Italian 2.2S.......

[hot66]

Well , I guess in spite of being very old and having seen a few economic cycles , I still cannot call the market.

If I needed to go out and get a £120k sportscar that I would use most days rather than put away off road for half the year or into storage as an 'asset' , I would get an Italian car , not this 2.2S , but a Ferrari 458 . There's one for sale at £119,995 (!) just down the road from me....gets coat...

yet you'll price the 356a in the other thread @ £150K ? you can't have it both ways

[Nick Moss]

As always, buy the best. With a non-matching engine it does not count among the "best"

[PhilipB]

It is strange how the market seems to be evolving. I haven't seen the 2.2S in question but if one assumes it is as nice a car as it appears to be in the pictures then why is the fact the engine is not original to the car so important? It would clearly matter if it wasn't the right type for the car but if it's the same version, spec and year what is the big deal? It was still made by Porsche at the same moment in time as the car's original engine and it will function identically. Yet the market seems to be knocking 30 - 40% off the value of this car for this reason. Could it be that the replacement of an engine implies that the car has been less well looked after or driven in a less sympathetic way? May be when the car was 5 or 10 years old that would matter but that clearly makes no sense once it's been restored 40 years later. Also compare that view with racing cars where you expect that the car has been driven to its maximum and the running gear is viewed as expendable. No one cares too much about whether the engine carries its original number. In fact it may even be the other way round. I'd be highly suspicious of a race car that's supposedly done 5 seasons of prestigious endurance racing and yet still has its original engine (allegedly). I can't tell you whether the value if a numbers match car is too high or a non numbers match too low but the gap in this case seems too large - all other things being equal of course. This isn't a unique case either. There seem to be a lot of nice but not perfect early 911s for sale in the US with no takers.

[Lightweight_911]

Well said Philip !

[Slope330]

very nicely put Mr B...................

[PhilipB]

One other related observation. Have recently been looking at buying a 964RS. Have been amazed by the huge range of values depending upon the mileage of the car. I'm aware that Ferrari values are massively mileage dependent and can see some logic in that given how fragile many of those cars are. However 90s Porsches were built like tanks! Why would you pay 50% more for something with 10k miles on it rather than 30k miles? Again, it seems to be a lazy inference that less miles means better condition - but of course that doesn't follow at all for a 25 year old car. It really surprises me how unsophisticated the market is sometimes.

[Sam]

All of your points are right for you Philip - someone who wants to own and drive a car for how good it is.

The mileage and matching numbers things are what matter to investors.

They end up mattering a bit to enthusiasts too, because it's nice for a car to be a sensible investment as well as some fun.

My 914 isn't worth much, so I don't care if it's matching number, I've never bothered checking. If I were buying a valuable car I'd get matching number, not because I care but because I'll want to sell it one day.

[210bhp]

Unsophisticated or not, that's the way the market is (just now). The next stage (2017) is going to be very interesting.

Whether we agree with you or not Philip, if what you say was true, this car would have sold long ago.
If you can't see why the original engine matters then you are not following things closely enough. The early 911 market has overheated. The considerable disposable cash of all but the very rich has been soaked up on most of the nice T E and S early 911's and what remains are not investors (who are still trading, swooping, selling, buying the very top cars) but discerning (and very few left) buyers who can't afford the top cars but are waiting for the very best of the rest and will not commit to anything less (especially something in six figures) nervous that anything other than a 'perfect' example will collapse when the market does eventually correct itself.

Same situation with Frank's absolutely beautiful 70E which is held back from selling due to its sporto box.

Regards
Mike

[PhilipB]

Whether we agree with you or not Philip, if what you say was true, this car would have sold long ago.

It's the fact that the car hasn't sold a long time ago which is causing me to question the way in which the market is currently evaluating these cars. It seems to be a box ticking exercise (numbers match? original paint? low owners? low mileage? etc). "If the boxes are ticked I want it, if not no interest." Am not saying that a car with all these attributes isn't a special thing. Just pointing out there are some great cars being overlooked because they don't quite fit with this simplistic set of criteria. There's a great 911S in the US that a dealer can't sell because it was repainted in a different (more attractive) colour 30 years ago. If I was brave enough I'd buy it as it's a relative bargain. However I worry that the market won't evolve from its current mindset and I'll get stuck with it. As a result we all get mired in this group think. I agree with you that given the sums of money involved it's a brave man who bucks the market.

[Darren65]

Hold up I'm confused, is this market/investment thing for real??? ......

.....I always thought it was a ruse that we told our wives/girlfriends/partners so we could buy expensive toys and spend thousands on them!

[964RS]

It is strange how the market seems to be evolving. I haven't seen the 2.2S in question but if one assumes it is as nice a car as it appears to be in the pictures then why is the fact the engine is not original to the car so important? It would clearly matter if it wasn't the right type for the car but if it's the same version, spec and year what is the big deal? It was still made by Porsche at the same moment in time as the car's original engine and it will function identically. Yet the market seems to be knocking 30 - 40% off the value of this car for this reason. Could it be that the replacement of an engine implies that the car has been less well looked after or driven in a less sympathetic way? May be when the car was 5 or 10 years old that would matter but that clearly makes no sense once it's been restored 40 years later. Also compare that view with racing cars where you expect that the car has been driven to its maximum and the running gear is viewed as expendable. No one cares too much about whether the engine carries its original number. In fact it may even be the other way round. I'd be highly suspicious of a race car that's supposedly done 5 seasons of prestigious endurance racing and yet still has its original engine (allegedly). I can't tell you whether the value if a numbers match car is too high or a non numbers match too low but the gap in this case seems too large - all other things being equal of course. This isn't a unique case either. There seem to be a lot of nice but not perfect early 911s for sale in the US with no takers.

Because the people buying these cars now are either buying them as pure INVESTMENTS or with a serious % of the reason for purchase being investment.

And these people are all being told by dealers to buy the best example MATCHING NUMBERS car you can.

Hence the premium for matching numbers and why non matching hang around unsold for much longer.

[964RS]

One other related observation. Have recently been looking at buying a 964RS. Have been amazed by the huge range of values depending upon the mileage of the car. I'm aware that Ferrari values are massively mileage dependent and can see some logic in that given how fragile many of those cars are. However 90s Porsches were built like tanks! Why would you pay 50% more for something with 10k miles on it rather than 30k miles? Again, it seems to be a lazy inference that less miles means better condition - but of course that doesn't follow at all for a 25 year old car. It really surprises me how unsophisticated the market is sometimes.

This has been the case for over 10 years with the 964RS and 993RS.

Mega low mileage 'investment grade' cars always sold at a massive premium over those with user miles on. Nothing has changed.

In fact it probably applies to a huge range of other models now that it never really did before...

[964RS]

Unsophisticated or not, that's the way the market is (just now). The next stage (2017) is going to be very interesting.

Whether we agree with you or not Philip, if what you say was true, this car would have sold long ago.
If you can't see why the original engine matters then you are not following things closely enough. The early 911 market has overheated. The considerable disposable cash of all but the very rich has been soaked up on most of the nice T E and S early 911's and what remains are not investors (who are still trading, swooping, selling, buying the very top cars) but discerning (and very few left) buyers who can't afford the top cars but are waiting for the very best of the rest and will not commit to anything less (especially something in six figures) nervous that anything other than a 'perfect' example will collapse when the market does eventually correct itself.

Same situation with Frank's absolutely beautiful 70E which is held back from selling due to its sporto box.

Regards
Mike

I'm not sure that is the case Mike - there are still plenty of mega wealthy and newly mega wealthy people buying up the best physical investments such as cars. I think just not many of the best cars have come to public market recently and they trade behind closed doors so all we see is the more average stuff that doesn't sell quickly and hangs around. The enthusiast is not buying this stuff and just sitting on what they have.

At the other end there was a 944S2 on PCGB at the weekend that had had 35k spent on it over the last 5 years and was for sale at £15k. It sold same day as advert and people were falling over themselves for it.

£15k for a 944 S2.....I thought was madness, but there are people paying big money at the bottom end as well as at the top for the right cars still. It's just all car dependent....

[Tp81]

Whether we agree with you or not Philip, if what you say was true, this car would have sold long ago.

It's the fact that the car hasn't sold a long time ago which is causing me to question the way in which the market is currently evaluating these cars. It seems to be a box ticking exercise (numbers match? original paint? low owners? low mileage? etc). "If the boxes are ticked I want it, if not no interest." Am not saying that a car with all these attributes isn't a special thing. Just pointing out there are some great cars being overlooked because they don't quite fit with this simplistic set of criteria. There's a great 911S in the US that a dealer can't sell because it was repainted in a different (more attractive) colour 30 years ago. If I was brave enough I'd buy it as it's a relative bargain. However I worry that the market won't evolve from its current mindset and I'll get stuck with it. As a result we all get mired in this group think. I agree with you that given the sums of money involved it's a brave man who bucks the market.

Out of sheer interest what's the other car you are referring to that isn't selling because of the colour change?

[Mike]

....Frank's absolutely beautiful 70E which is held back from selling due to its sporto box.

Totally disagree, it's held back from selling because of the price, not the box! In the same way you can't say a car isn't selling because of it's colour, it needs to be priced correctly to reflect a colour change the same with if it's non matching numbers, it's not rocket science.

Anything will sell if it's priced right, exactly the same as selling a house. The problem is owners think what they have is worth more than the market dictates, that's why some cars and houses sit on the market for months on end not selling, reduce the price to the right level and they will sell straight away.

Being realistic is the key if you really want to sell, but I think the main problem around at the moment is people just trying it on, they don't need to sell so they put the car up at an inflated price in the hope that some ill advised fool will come along who's caught up in the hype of it all.

All imho of course...