Sagging rear

Need some help with a technical problem - ask away and let's see if we can all help.

Moderators: hot66, impmad2000, Nige

Jesse
DDK slapper chatter
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:56 am
Location: www.early911.se

Sagging rear

Post by Jesse »

I have spent endless hours of work on my -71 911 with a sagging right rear..

Finally, after a long time of denial I measured the spring plate angle, set at 29 degrees and then drove the car hard and remeasured, now 23 degrees, riding on bump stops.... The spring plate splines look good, no sign of slipping and the bar splines also.. (New 26mm) I have tried stock 23mm bars, the same issue occured..

(Measurements with car in balance, left rear and front end untouched and within desired specs)

Is the crimped center female spline "ring" in the torsion tube built up of left/ringt? If not the only thing I can blame is two, different sagging torsion bars which to me sounds rather unlikely.

These issues are humbling.......

:bigsmurf:
Porsche 911, 1977
DP-Zirkelbach
3L 930/10
Indischrot

Porsche 911, 1971
2.5L Street Beater
Silver metallic
Nick Moss
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 9424
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:59 pm
Location: East Sussex
Contact:

Re: Sagging rear

Post by Nick Moss »

Covered at length in Jonny Hart's thread.
Nick Moss - early911.co.uk - Fuchs refurbishment
07980 017994
nick@early911.co.uk
defianty
Put a fork in me, I'm done!
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:02 pm
Location: Rochford, Essex

Re: Sagging rear

Post by defianty »

To add to Nick's post, here's the actual link to Jonny's post about his saggy rear end :shock:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53533
Stephen

1973 914 3.0 GT Build Progress
1974 TR6

914 Rear Alignment Shims
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by fetuhoe »

The centre section of the torsion bar tube contains a single steel component that looks a little like a dog bone or a small dumbell.

It is one piece and is splined so both bars plug into this single component.

I did have a photograph of one removed from a corroded tube but can't find where I have stored it at moment.

The reduced centre section is designed to be located by the crimps and the ends are welded into the tube with radial plug welds.
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 20702
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by 911hillclimber »

What happens if the car was jacked up with the rear wheels off the ground by a 70mm or so for (say) 1 or 2 days and then the car returned to the ground.
Could the original ride height be restored over time?

If the bushes were very tight, then the TB would bring the system back as the bushes s l o w l y allow the twist induced by driving the car to relax.

Just a thought as this prob is irritating to fathom out!
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
Jesse
DDK slapper chatter
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:56 am
Location: www.early911.se

Re: Sagging rear

Post by Jesse »

Thank you Chris and others! The last thing I tested was to put liberal amounts of rubber grease on the new (ER) bushings in order to minimize sticking bushings. But, im open to your input!


I had a vague memory of it being made out of one piece hence one side affecting the other which isnt my case..

Still having trouble accepting that I have had two sets of soggy R-hand side torsion bars. I do accept that the repro/new Porsche 26mm bars could be from a bad batch but what are the chances that the original 23mm R-hand one also suffered the same problem?? Then again, you should never say never..

Just so extremely tired of not getting the car dialed in
Porsche 911, 1977
DP-Zirkelbach
3L 930/10
Indischrot

Porsche 911, 1971
2.5L Street Beater
Silver metallic
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by fetuhoe »

911hillclimber wrote:What happens if the car was jacked up with the rear wheels off the ground by a 70mm or so for (say) 1 or 2 days and then the car returned to the ground.
Could the original ride height be restored over time?

If the bushes were very tight, then the TB would bring the system back as the bushes s l o w l y allow the twist induced by driving the car to relax.

Just a thought as this prob is irritating to fathom out!
I am not sure why this would happen.

If we go back to the basic calculation then the wheel rate produced by a 26mm torsion bar is around 165 lbs/in

The rear corner weight of a typical 911 is around 750lbs which is equivalent to 4.5" - 115mm which is around 10 degrees of twist.

This level of deflection would create a surface shear stress of around 275 MPa which I would think is around 30% of a torsion bar's yield strength.

Shear yield strength is typically 0.58 X The tensile yield strength of a material.

At this point all we have done is lowered the weight of the car onto its wheel.

The torsion bar has twisted through 10 degrees and the rubber bush has twisted the same amount - assuming the bush is not free to rotate.

The energy the bush will store under these conditions is negligible and really can be compeletely ignored - the bush will store about 1% of the energy stored in the torsion bar.

We also need to consider that there is only likley to be another 3-4" wheel movement before the damper bottoms and starts to contact the bump stop.

If we now lose 70-80mm of ride height the torsion bar must be plastically deforming which really means it would have to have been manufactured to about 1/3rd of its nominal strength - I find this unlikley.

The bar will twist through another 7.5 degrees to allow the wheel to move by 80mm and this would increase the shear stress on the torsion bar to about 425MPa which is around 50% of the materials shear yield strength and would also be below the material's Fatigue Endurance limit.

These numbers are typical of the loadings that I would expect to find in a well designed spring.

From a basic 'Strength of Material's' Design perspective the idea that 26mm bars yield just doesn't stack up.

If we consider a 23mm bar in a similar situation then for the same wheel travel the bar will twist 25 degrees rather than the 17.5 degrees that we would find with a 26mm bar and the shear stress would increase to about 625MPa.

23mm bars perfrom well and don't generally yield at this level of shear stress.

A 26mm diameter torsion bar is around 60% stiffer than a 23mm bar (Torsional stifness varies with 4th power of diameter) so again a defective bar wpould need to be made to 50% of its nominal yield strength.

I still think this is unlikley - this is not a small deviation from a specification it is catastrophic.

To understand the process of yielding we need to consider what happens when the bar twists.

The outer diameter of the bar is the most highly stressand two things happen when yielding occurs.

The first is that the material strengthens due to work hardneing and yield strength increases.

The second is that the material exhibits a permanent offset.

If you want to remove this offset you would have to twist the bar in the opposite torque sense and cause yielding to occur in the reverse direction.

There is not really any way that the energy stored in a rubber spring plate bush could make this happen, nor could the bush resist the restoring force created when the spring is unloaed.

To all practical purposes the elastic energy stored in a spring is 100% recoverable - The tan delta (mechanical loss coefficient) of a typical steel is around 0.25 x 10^-4 compared to rubber which for NBR can be as high as 0.27 which also means a rubber bush will absorb enegy due to its damping capacity.

The 'time domain' is also generally irrelevant as time has no real impact on a metal's yield point although steel does exhibit strain rate sensitivity at deformation rates above around 10^2 per second.
Bruce M
Me and DDK sitting in a tree! KISSING
Posts: 2910
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:07 pm

Re: Sagging rear

Post by Bruce M »

Is it possible for the manufacturing heat treatments / annealing to be incorrectly applied and perhaps inconsistent throughout the diameter of the bar? Could that result in different material spec at different depths?

Also, what if the plastic preset wasn't correctly applied? Could that lead to plastic deforming of the outer diameter in normal use? I'd assume if the plastic deforming did happened, then it should stabilise (effectively doing what should have happened during manufacturing). It's interesting (to me!) that a properly made torsion bar is never truly at "rest" because when unloaded, the core is compressed and the outer layer is in tension :-)

Sorry, just musing over something I'm very much not qualified to answer, lol. :-)
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by fetuhoe »

It is unlikley that a spring maker would specify a material incorrectly as this type of activity is their core business so I would rule out this as a possible resason for a problem to occur.

It is possible that heat treatment has been carried out incorrectly but it is unlikley that the bar material used for the manufacture of a torsion bar has ever been annealed as there is no reason to carry out this operation.

Bars of the diameter used for torsion bars are likely to be processed in a 'as rolled'or possibly a normalised condition.

The ends of the bar will then be upset which can be considered as a forging operation amd then heat treated.

A typical Carbon/Manganse/Silicon Spring Steel have ruling sections which are substantially greater then the diameter of a 911 torsion bar it is likely that the centre of the bar is not a strong as the outer diameter.

To establish the variation is strength thorugh the bar's cross-section is easy to determine using basic hardness tests.

The potential errors that can occur during heat treatment are straightforward.

The tempertur from which the bar would be quenched could be too low and the material may not be fully austenetised. This would mean that not all of the carbon in the steel would be taken into solution and the quenching process would not be fully effective.

The second type of problem is that the bar may not have been held at temperature for a sufficiently long time and the centre of the bar will be too cold and again quenching will not produce the desired result.

In the first case a simple hardness test will reveal that the correct strength level has not been obtained.

The second case is more difficult to determine BUT as the outer layers of the bar could be correcly heat treated the influence of this problem would limited.

The outer diameter of the bar will be the forst part of the component to yield and the greater the angle of twist the deeper the plastic deforamtion.

As bars would never be designed to yield in a duty cycle the fact that the outer layer had sufficient strength would mean that the bat would still be fit for purpose.

Again the heat treatment of springs is such a routine process for any spring manufacturer and modern process control is so advanced it is difficult to understand how this would happen.

The process of yielding in a torsion bar is much more complex than in tension. In the torsion member yielding starts at the outside and progresses inward with increasing torque. As the torque increases we finally reach a fully plastic condition where the strain (and thus angle of twist) is increasing while the torque (TFP) is approximately constant. At the fully plastic torque the entire cross section is yielding.

There are problems with this theoretical state of fully plastic torsion because it calls for a discontinuity of stress at the centre of the specimen. In spite of this defect in our model, we find we can in fact approach a fully plastic torque. At the fully plastic condition the torque will remain essentially constant while the angular deformation increases. If we continue to twist the specimen the torque will again begin to increase. The increasing torque which follows the plastic action is directly related to the increased stress which follows yielding in the uniaxial loading of carbon steel (i.e. after sufficient yielding at essentially constant stress, the stress again increases with additional deformation).

In a fully plastic condition the relationship between torque and shear yield stress is given by

There is never a compressive stree developed in a torsion memeber this would only occur in bending.

The pre-setting or scragging of springs is carried out on all production springs and is designed to stabilise the spring.

The heat treatment process may result in the formation of retained austenite and subsequent elastic deforamtion may cause this phaes - which is metastable - to transform and this caises a dilation which can allow some initial 'settling' of the spring.

Prestetting eliminates this issue and means that the ride height of new cars is unlikely to change.

If new torsion bars have not been preset then there is a possibility that they could sag during initial use but as you correctly state once the bar has settled it will stabalise and not continue to yield.

It is also very unlikley that retained austeite would result in the steeling of ride of 70-80mm as rwsudual austinite is usually significanlty less than 2% of the structure and the dilation effects would be very small.

Presetting also increases the strength of the material and a reasonable explation of the process can be found here: http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/librar ... pendix.pdf

As I disccussed in a previous thread having supplied spring testing and presetting machines to most of the leading spring manufacturers in Europe for more than 20 years it is just hard to unnderstand how errors occur.
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 20702
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by 911hillclimber »

The suspension design is simple as we know.
Assuming the springs are good, assuming there is no stiction in the bushes and the travel of the dampers and the trailing arm bush is free also there are few parts that can move to another to allow the car to sag.
The bar spline centre collar in the middle of the cross tube is crimped and plug welded, so reasonable to assume that is not moving round in the tube.

This leaves the fasteners of the spring plate to the arm, the adjusting eccentric allen bolts and the outer spline 'cup' welded to the spring arm.
I think the cup is welded, it has been 20 years since I last took mine apart.

Even with the fasteners loose, the clearance in the slots etc is quite small, maybe 1 mm, so that will not allow much sag.

So, the only part that can move is the cup to the spring plate?

For the car to sag, there needs to be a relative change over time and use between the inner and outer bar spline location radially if we assume all the other parts are solid or working correctly.
My spring design is limited to light springs used in weighing machines of old and spragging was crucial, but the springs were a bit odd and never torsion bars, but correctly made they were very very repeatable and stable to fine Weights and Measures standards.
I doubt these torsion bars are flawed, but as said, never say never.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
Gary71
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 10732
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:27 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Sagging rear

Post by Gary71 »

One of my front bars had a flaw causing a sag, but it was quite obvious and dramatic! :)

Image
abzadams
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1023
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:54 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: Sagging rear

Post by abzadams »

Gary71 wrote:One of my front bars had a flaw causing a sag, but it was quite obvious and dramatic! :)

Image

Scottish tour 2007?
Rich

Sepia 72 2.5T/E (gone)
2004 996 Turbo
Gary71
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 10732
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:27 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Re: Sagging rear

Post by Gary71 »

Indeed. I remember us both being a little saggy on that event!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by fetuhoe »

Graham,

If I understand correctly the 'cup' you are describing is the tube that is welded to the spring plate.


The tube has one end swaged down so that the spline can be broached whilst still allowing the bar to clear the ID of the tube so that everything locates correctly.

The weld is single sided by I have never seen any cracks in this area and this is unlikely to be the cause of the failure.

You can see from Gary's photograph that the twist a bar will tolerate before if fails in a brittle manner is quite limited so if bars are being re-indexed several times they should have broken.

It is likely that this bar failed due to the effects of corrosion fatigue and once a short crack had developed failure was inevitable.

If anyone has bar that has sagged I would welcome the opportunity to test its hardness and see what we can infer about the material's tensile strength.
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 20702
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Sagging rear

Post by 911hillclimber »

Yes Chris, exactly what I meant, but couldn't recall the joining process used and as it is welded then that's the end of my input!

Just got to be the bars then.

The corrosion that Gary had is where the felt ring seal is dry or missing and corrosion is rampant, add the stress and away it goes, but as you say I'm sure it is sudden...
I whet mine with engine oil when ever I'm under the front of the car with wheels off.

John on the other thread, same issue, is fitting Tuthill drilled bars to seek a cure to the same problem here albeit 26mm or it's equivalent.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
Post Reply