914 Rustoration - plodding on.

[Bewildebeest]

No hijack at all Barry - it all increases my knowledge of the black art of welding. DIY may be the only way I'm going to get mine done - which means a bit of a refresh and then lots of practice.

[Barry]

Cool: like you say, if you don't put any deadlines on it, and just enjoy the process it should be a very rewarding restoration. I take it you're no stranger to a welding torch?

Either way, if you hit any body/panel/welding type snags post it up and someone will be happy to offer advice .

[wizzman]

Argosheild is the BOC product that you want and the weld will be better and welds at a lower temp than co 2 so less distortion !

[Bewildebeest]

I take it you're no stranger to a welding torch?

A long, long way from being even half competent. You might trust my welding on a wheelbarrow. Hence the need for lots of practice. I'll be good by the time it's finished though won't I ?
But don't worry, I'll get a pro to do the structural bits (which is most of it) and only do the easy, cosmetic bits as and when I'm competent.

Incidentally I think I've sussed what this bit of butchery was about
.
I've seen elsewhere that there's a problem with the clutch cable tube mounting weld coming adrift (not one of mine, honest) and this was part of someone's investigation.

[fourteener]

heh, I'm the otherway around -the structural welding on thick panels is easy...its the intricate pretty welds (where distortion happens) that I struggle on

[912uk]

Well I bought a couple of high pressure bottles of Argon/Co2 from Machine mart to try out as I am getting on ok with the Co2 but I have some body panels where the metal is thin so I thought I would try them out and then if get on with that much I will get a bottle..

My mate Gary who owns www.migtigarc.co.uk has a new set up where you can hire a Argon/Co2 mix for £35 for 3 years no contract other than the £35 for 3 years.. £35 deposit and £23 to fill it.. so for about £90 you get a pub bottle of argon/co2

he is doing really well with it.. I did say I would have one off him but I will try out the little bottles first..

[porker914]

Argosheild 5 is what i was always taught was best with mig welding and pure argon for Tig welding, I forget the reasons why now but in practice it seems to be true.

David

[Barry]

Yes Argoshield (BOC) and Cougar 5 (Air products) are required for any decent welding. My understanding is that these gases are a blend that includes Argon, CO2 and strangely, Oxygen (strange because the Argon and CO2 are there to stop the weld meeting Oxygen. I can only think that a controlled amount must help the weldpool to flow).

I haven't used pure CO2 for fifteen years +, as its another thing to work round as it tends to give a slightly spattery, hard weld. Not very nice.

It always seems to me that anything to do with DIY welding really does the consumer no favours: CO2 which is a real budget gas, nasty DIY MIG welders, poor panel tools that don't cut/punch/bend, high prices for everything. I suspect that if most people were able to do their first welds with a good quality, professional MIG welder, they'd be amazed how easy it can be.

As a guide, I would always buy an old 'proper' welder, rather than a new DIY one: I bought my Boramig (Cebora) 17 years ago, 2nd hand for £350 (lot of money for me then). It's still going strong after a lot of work, and is probably still worth a couple of hundred quid as well. There's loads out there: generally if it's got a 'Euro' torch fitting (torch cable is quick-release from the machine), its probably a 'proper' welder. (These are the machines that are currently £650 - £900 ish new).

Sorry, don't know where that all came from, was only going to say CO2 bad, Argoshield / Cougar5 good .

Anyway, back to the Bewildebeestmobile: I agree with Steve, that the hardest welding is the outer, cosmetic stuff. I think the challange with the structural stuff is more to do with working out the method of getting the car stripped right down, supported, cut up, repaired, and back together with everything fitting right, and pointing the right way.

The inner and outer panelwork tends to present different sorts of problems: the inner is often all about producing 3D panels with lots of shape, and/or curved flanges. The outer is all about very tight fits and distortion free butt welding. As we've said before though: if there's no huge rush, then it all presents opportunities for problem solving. Although our cars were produced from pressings, that's not to say that an awful lot can't be formed using a few hand tools: including heavily compound curved panesl if needed.

Looking foward to the next instalment .

[fourteener]

Barry, what sort of functions/controls do the higher end welders have? It can't be just the duty cycle/ amps etc. Mine doesn't have infinate amp control just hi/low/1/2 switches + wire speed and has a weedy earth lead -cost about £280 IIRC.
I have read some welders have a 'slow wire start' function presumably to stop a massive pool when the arc strikes.
Is your welder 3 phase + does the quick release you spoke of look like this?

[Barry]

Generally the pro. welders have stepped amp control, wire feed, and either one or two variable timers (mines got two, one for plug/spot welds, one for stitch welding). You don't use the timers much, and even then only really use one (for spot/plug welding).

Some of the latest generation inverter based welders 'work out' the wire speed and amps depending on the metal thickness that you have specified, and have a continuously variable amperage that can be manually controlled as well. Also some of these have the variable starts to give a kick of amps on start, so perhaps its these that have the slow wire start as well. A lot of these later ones will weld aluminium and stainless as well.

Some of the really good traditional welders did away with the main wire feed, and just offered a wire speed 'trimmer' that allowed for fine adjustments only: this is because, in theory, there should only be one 'correct' wire speed for each amps setting. The old (like 70's, not the foreign badge engineered current ones) Norman Butters mig welders were like this. Fabulous machines, and I would love to get one.

Yes, mine is single phase, and a lot of the medium pro. welders come as 110v, 240 single ph, and three phase for the larger machines.

Yes, that's what you'd call a 'Euro' fitting. Means all of the leads, wire liner, tips and torch are all standard(ish): certainly easily available anyway.

This marks the end of my thread hyjack .

[fourteener]

Barry, maybe we should ask Tom for a new forum for tools/equipment

[Bewildebeest]

OK ...OK .....OK ..... I'll learn to weld.
Can I have my thread back now please ?



Seriously guys - all the info is much appreciated except that it's told me how little I really know. I'm working on improving my welding while I'm stripping paint/restoring nuts and bolts etc. The speed I move at it should dovetail fairly well.

[Barry]

Yep, sorry about that .

TBH, a lot of this stuff is pretty straightfoward once you've got the basics: if you'd like to make the journey here, I'd be happy to run through a number of essentials .... not that I'm an expert, but at least have got a few hours welding / panel experiennce.

[Bewildebeest]

if you'd like to make the journey here, I'd be happy to run through a number of essentials .....

My short time on this site tells me that's an offer not to be missed.

As and when I get to Sussex I'll be there with my learning head on. Many thanks.

not that I'm an expert, but at least have got a few hours welding / panel experiennce.

I'll bet that's making a few people smile !

As for the welding 'hijack' - I think most of the point of this site - and Resto threads in particular - is mutual education so if we all get wiser, so much the better. At the moment I'm very much 'receiving' but hopefully, as and when my car proceeds, I'll be able to feed info and experience back for the benefit of the next unfortunate.
Fourteener's suggestion does makes sense of course in that none 914 owners might miss out on useful info because it's not in a general forum - I'll leave the techies to mull over that one.

[autohausdolby]

Keep up the good work! That German thread is amazing