Door adjustment tips needed please

[deano]

Hi guys,

Before I dive in, can anyone please give any tips/guidance on door adjustment - this is something I have never done before?

The door seems to be about 3 to 4 mm too proud at the front edge (reference to the sill), and about 2 mm too far forward (door gap at latch end of about 2 mm. Door latch panel has been changed and is in good condition, so I don't want to mess with that).

There are no shims on top hinge. One or two on the bottom (cant remember off the top of my head).

The door is flush to the rear wing height.

The goal is to close up the front wing gaps (this is a follow on from my OEM wing fettling thread).

I have a mallet and spanners at the ready!!!

Perhaps this, and my wing fettling, is a job for someone that knows what they are doing already (who)??

All the best, Dean (Coventry area)

[coomo]

Can be a pain to adjust.Really difficult to try and explain this.If the lock post and/or sills have been changed then your back
to a point where only the rear wing can be your reference point.I wouldnt worry about gaps at first.Firstly try to get the panels flush.use some big washers, on hinges so it will
be obvious as to what areas they affect.
I try and get fitting to rear wing/lock post first then sill.Lastly the door/wing gap.Because if you cant get good gaps, there is always an option to weld bead on wings.
Sorry cant be more helpful.

[deano]

Thanks Coomo,

I didnt understand your suggestion about using big washers, but I'll slacken the bolts off and see if I can get an improved gap compromise. You can imagine that I absolutely dont want to put a bead on my brand spanker OEM wings - I think I would rather live with large gaps!!

The thing that I am really lacking intel on is how to get the doors forward about 2 mm when there are no shims to remove from the top hinge - I am wondering if its a case of hitting the hinge/post with a mallet (and suitable block). I am guessing that the door post must be a sturdy S.O.B, otherwise we would all have saggy doors, so I dont want to hit it unless those in the know say its OK

- can anyone tell me the best way to do this please?

Cheers

[coomo]

Sorry mate.Im pretty rubbish at trying to explain stuff.By using washers/shims the goal is to get to a place where all the panels meet with acceptable gaps/lines, where you can see that the next adjustment will make it fit.There are a myriad of angles and levels, that all require massaging to get to where gaps are acceptable, there is usually once critical area which will make it work.
You havent mentioned which (if any) panels have been replaced.Its possible youve "welded in" your problem, or you may have worn hinges,is the car on the floor,jig spit.Is engine in/out? youll be amazed how much they flex disrupting fitment of panels.

[911hillclimber]

I've been through this twice, and all DIY.
Coomo is correct, shim the hinge if you can with washers but the simple aluminium shim is simple to make or purchase. The panls being flush is by far the hardest part as ALL panels rarely line up.
I presume the rear wing is all welded on and repaired.
Get the door (original?) to align so the surfaces are true to each other.
Get the height to the sill correct (ie the gap) but again true to the door.

When I did mine I installed the door lock and the latch on the B post.
You now have the hard bit, the wing rear fit.

Mount the wing with several bolts at rear edge and also at he very front. Install a plastic filler strip to the top rear of the wing and scuttle as this will have a pronounced effect on wing position.
Again, focus on surface truth. It might help to run a fine string from front to rear to show any gaps but your hand and eye are the best tools.

You can now see the gaps you have.

The leading edge of the door must align to the sill/wing and on my 73T (original A pillar) the door could not be moved forwards, the hinges were hard against the A pillar and I have a 6mm panel gap.

To fix this I tack welded a 3mm dia mild steel rod to the DOOR vertical leading edge and lead -loaded the surfaces smooth. This worked a treat.

This was all 30 years ago and all is good still.
Panel fits are a lot of hard work!

[deano]

Thanks both!

This thread is a follow-on from my recent OEM wing fettling thread. The rear wings and lock panels are both fixed in place, and both doors tops are flush to the rear wing tops. The LHS sill seems to be high because the bottom door gap is only one or two mm, and the latch panel has been changed recently by a PO and looks good. The sills have most probably both been changed (even several times - perhaps I am stating the obvious here). I need to get both doors forward about 2 mm, but there are no shims on the top hinges.

If I understand your suggestions correctly, adding shims would move the doors 'back' toward the locks, which is the opposite of what I need to do...

My outstanding problem/question is :

- how do I get the doors forward about 2 mm each in the case - hit the hinge post with a mallet?

(with suitable block up against the hinge - the doors are still on the car)

Cheers guys!

[Gary71]

Any pics?

What’s the door gap to the 1/4 panel?

As per Graham’s suggestion if that’s right then to close the gap to the wing (if it’s as far back as it will go) you need to build up there edge of the door.

If the gap to the quarter is too tight then yes controlled violence to the pillar maybe required, but it’s internally cross braced so won’t be easy and might pop a spot weld before it moves.

[deano]

Any pics?

What’s the door gap to the 1/4 panel?

As per Graham’s suggestion if that’s right then to close the gap to the wing (if it’s as far back as it will go) you need to build up there edge of the door.

If the gap to the quarter is too tight then yes controlled violence to the pillar maybe required, but it’s internally cross braced so won’t be easy and might pop a spot weld before it moves.

The door-quarter gaps are approx 2.5 on one side and 2.8 mm on the other, so there is room I think to shift them forward to contribute to closing help close the (huge) wing gaps, and I want the door gaps to be correct anyway (4 mm?). The door gaps are a bit smaller at the tops of the rear wings. One or both of the doors might not be original (its been a decade probably since I looked behind the door panels for old paint).

Someone asked if it was on a jig or something else - it is sat on its wheels/suspension, and levelled - the only thing not fitted are the Targa roof and the carpets and seats.

Controlled violence then?! or maybe machine 2 mm off the back of the top hinges and use shims to get the gaps correct (the bottom hinges on both side have shims, so I can remove some of them).....

[Gary71]

Machining the hinges sounds like a better plan than violence. Just be careful not to take too much off as the recesses for the bolts are quite deep.

[deano]

Meant to add some pics... (just a few because it is so time-consuming trying to meet the size limits )

[deano]

I should have asked - any suggestions on who might be able to do this wing/door fettling for me?

.... this is the only thing preventing me from getting it ready for paint ... I thought I would have it cracked this summer...

[911hillclimber]

Any good body shop will tweet these for you.
Imho the 911 is nothing special, much the same as many cars of its years.
Suggest a classic car shop more than a modern body shop.
I really dislike machining the hinges.
I used to design door hinges and latches in the late 80s and the crash tests we did would make you shudder, the violence of a side impact had to be taken by the hinges and latch/ striker, so weakening the hinge is a no-no to me.
Looks are nice, safety is better.

I still favour adding to the door leading edge after maxing out everything else.
Good chance that is what the specialist will do.

[deano]

Any good body shop will tweet these for you.
Imho the 911 is nothing special, much the same as many cars of its years.
Suggest a classic car shop more than a modern body shop.
I really dislike machining the hinges.
I used to design door hinges and latches in the late 80s and the crash tests we did would make you shudder, the violence of a side impact had to be taken by the hinges and latch/ striker, so weakening the hinge is a no-no to me.
Looks are nice, safety is better.

I still favour adding to the door leading edge after maxing out everything else.
Good chance that is what the specialist will do.

Ah, but I have huge trust issues I will only trust it to someone recommended highly on this forum, and someone that has worked on a lot of early 911's. I could easily add a bead to the door myself, but Barry suggested (in my recent wing fettling thread) that I should leave the door end of the wings alone (implying no bead), and push the wings back to get the correct gaps at the door (even if this makes the wing tips short), and then build up (lead) the front tips of the wings to make them line up with the bonnet end. At the moment, I am trying to get the doors forward a tad, before either following what Barry suggested, or add (large) bead like you suggested, or a compromise (small bead and less building out at the front wing tips). Thanks for your words of caution about machining the hinges - I will bear these in mind once I get time to look. That said, I am at the point where I would happily pay someone to get me past this hurdle - if I could find someone that meets my criteria

Always appreciate your help guys! cheers, Dean

[Gary71]

Those hinges are stronger than the pillar, even with a bit machined off

You could easily curl an early 911 into a ball and the hinges will be the only thing remaining

[coomo]

Re the "high" sill.This is pretty easy to remedy by cutting a slot in the edge fettling (hammering)and welding.If I read it right your chasing 1/2mm? with that amount Id machine the hinges, or run a small fillet of plate along door edge and tig it.The advantage with this option, is that you get to grind it for a perfect fit.If you gonna sub this out get a quote.It doesnt seem much but these adjustments tend to create a domino effect, and can endure.
Looking at your pics.The L/H door & wing one.To me it looks like the rear quarter is bowed out?Thats gonna cause the problems your finding.