Deciding factors ...

Chat away, Classic Porsche related or otherwise

Moderators: hot66, Miggs, 58A - 71E, impmad2000, drummerboytom, Barry, Helen, Viv_Surby, Derek, KS, abm914, Mike Usiskin

Post Reply
User avatar
richkaz
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:47 pm
Location: southampton

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by richkaz »

Image

Image

Image


'a max weight of 1000 Kg'
Aprilia weight approx. 900 kilo's

- 'an engine of under 2 litres (& preferably no more than 1.5 litres) '
Aprilia capacity between 1354 -1486 cc

- 'an advanced spec for the era '
Aprilia . Steel monocoque construction
Lancia Lambda was the first production V4 engine and the Aprilia developed it further.
Fully independent 4 wheel suspension ( in 1938 ! )
Very early adopter of wind tunnel aerodynamic testing.

- 'a recognised Factory competition history'
It's a Lancia – nuff said.

- '& be in standard Factory spec or featuring only 'period'/reversible mods'
Mille Miglia Storica eligible


'They would also need to be LHD, ideally built in (relatively) small numbers, be in excellent condition requiring no obvious foreseeable expenditure – &, possibly most important of all, must be a make/model the values of which aren't already prohibitively expensive … '

Strangely most are RHD but LHD were sold as well.

Light years ahead of the competition in the late 30's and early 40's.
Now,at last being appreciated.
“Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three
decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good "..

1971 911 2.2T sold
1970 911 2.2S Sold but remains within DDK
1959 Lancia Flaminia PF Coupe
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

.

Aprilia's are beautifully made cars (& that one looks to be in exceptional condition) but I'm afraid that, with few exceptions, cars from that era - late '30's/'40's - just don't appeal to me ...

.
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

.
"So I started to research the 1.3HF " ...



First off – did it meet my criteria ?

1) Max weight of 1000 Kg - 825 Kg

2) Engine of under 2 litres (& preferably no more than 1.5 litres) - 1298cc

3) An advanced spec for the era - front-wheel-drive, narrow angle V4 with a one-piece dohc c/head, 4-wheel disc brakes, etc

4) A recognised Factory competition history - significant successes – if not always outright wins – in many international events inc Monte Carlo, Sanremo & Acropolis rallies, Targa Florio, Coupe des Alpes, etc

5) LHD – although also built in RHD form, the vast majority were LHD

6) Built in (relatively) small numbers – there were fewer than 1000 1.3HF's built

7) A make/model the values of which aren't already prohibitively expensive – prices over the past 5 years had already risen significantly but they were still within my price range

A quick search revealed that, at any given time, there were typically half a dozen 1.3HF's for sale in Europe - the majority of which were, understandably, located in Italy.

Of those on offer, many had been modified, often with different seats & steering wheels, wider (repro) alloy wheels (involving the addition of wheelarch extensions) etc.

Although such modifications wouldn't necessarily rule these cars out, I would prefer to start with a car in standard spec.

So what exactly was the standard spec - & how did it differ from the production 1.3 ?

Weight reduction included:

F&R bumper deletion
Aluminium bonnet, boot & doors
Lightweight F&R seats
Plastic rear screen & rear side windows
Lightweight carpet

These resulted in an overall weight of 825 kg vs 960 kg for the std 1.3 Rallye Coupe

Minor engine mods included:

Higher compression pistons (10.5 vs 9.5:1)
High(er) lift cams
Larger/polished ports

- resulting in a power output of 101 bhp @ 6400rpm as opposed to 87 bhp @ 6000rpm for the 1.3 Rallye

I started to log on to the Italian car search sites daily - Subito, Autobelle, AutoScout24, Kijiji, AutoUncle, etc as well as the more general sites like Classic Trader, Car Classic, etc.

It seemed that prices were already starting to rise further – especially for cars in excellent original condition …

After corresponding with several sellers – both dealers & privateers – in Italy, it became clear that virtually none of the cars had a fully traceable history & many sellers knew very little about their cars – or, indeed the 1.3HF model in general …
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
User avatar
MikeB
Put a fork in me, I'm done!
Posts: 1927
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:13 pm
Location: N. Ireland

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by MikeB »

Looking for a genuine HF is like looking for a genuine 911 of the same period, there were few 1.3 HFs ( less then 200 LHD) and lots of modified ordinary cars, I assume you know which chassis & engine nrs to look for. Don't think Italians are much into documentary trails, but good luck with your search.
Cheers

Mike

RS Rep 3.0 on Webers
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

rhd racer wrote:I just looked at Renault 5 Turbo 2s. I know they are 80s, but a nice small engine and fit the brief in every other way ...but prices have gone utterly ballistic :shock:
I just realised I mis-read your earlier post - I thought you were talking about the standard R5 GT Turbo - not the mid-engined Group 4 rally-inspired homologation special.

However, the model I did lust over was the original R5 Turbo 1 with that fabulous futuristic (& lurid) interior:

Image

.
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 20690
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Image


LANCIA FULVIA HF 1.2
INTERNAL CODE: LAN00032

Extremely rare Fulvia HF 1,200 cc
the HF 1.2 was produced for only one year, as it was built to pursue a career in rallies, with the legendary Fulvia. From then on, Fulvia began climbing the Olympics of rallies, conquering countless victories.
Consequently this car represents an inevitable object for every collector and enthusiast of the brand

When Piero Castagnero designed the Fulvia in 1965, he was strongly inspired by the streamlined lines of the Riva motorboats, which at the time represented a sort of avant-garde of industrial design. The Lancia coupe quickly became the most well-known and popular of the Turin-based company: it was an elegant-looking car, particularly cared for in the finishes but with sporty performance. Made on the shortened platform of the sedan, the compact coupe of the Turin-based company was driven at the time of its debut by an 80 HP V4 - 1,200 cc engine. The power supply with two Solex double-barrel carburettors, combined with a 4-speed gearbox and a low weight of 950 kg, guaranteed this small sports car some remarkable performances.
The technicians, encouraged by the mechanical and chassis skills of Fulvia, glimpsed a possible career in racing and in 1966 they introduced for this reason, a more powerful version called HF.
This model boasted an 88 hp engine and a further lightened body: the removal of the bumper, the plexiglass windows and the use of "peraluman", a very light aluminum and magnesium alloy, gave the small coupe a significant feather weight and unbeatable handling.
Aesthetically, the Fulvia HF was recognizable by the yellow / blue painted band, "HF" logos and the Amaranth paint.

The HF 1.2 was produced only for a year with the intention of embarking on a long career in racing, climbing from there on on the highest steps of the world slowdown competitions.
The car of this service is one of the few and original Fulvia HF 1.2. The car is already ASI gold plate approved, in excellent general condition and mechanically impeccable. To date, this version represents an inevitable object for every passionate collector of the Lancia brand.
The car is in excellent condition
restored some years ago, in an original way
ASI approved with gold plate
license plate and regular documents
fully functional
We offer logistics and home delivery service.
Shipping costs are the responsibility of the buyer.
Wide range of cars & motorbikes in offer in our premises .
Car visible in Reggio Emilia, Italy
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
rhd racer
Me and DDK sitting in a tree! KISSING
Posts: 2536
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:47 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by rhd racer »

Lightweight_911 wrote:
rhd racer wrote:I just looked at Renault 5 Turbo 2s. I know they are 80s, but a nice small engine and fit the brief in every other way ...but prices have gone utterly ballistic :shock:
I just realised I mis-read your earlier post - I thought you were talking about the standard R5 GT Turbo - not the mid-engined Group 4 rally-inspired homologation special.

However, the model I did lust over was the original R5 Turbo 1 with that fabulous futuristic (& lurid) interior:

Image

.
Yes, that’s more what I was thinking. I think the late cars are more of a modern classic, but the early ones tick every box, apart from cost it seems. That interior is fantastic, would certainly feel like an occasion to drive.

It seems you may be fairly set on the Lancia HF, but I though of another rarity last night which I have a matchbox model of in the loft and always liked. Unfortunately the Abarths have gone barmy price wise, although probably always have been due to low numbers made and rust / hard lives rallying, but what about the more subdued but quite brilliant 131 super-mirafiori. Big enough to tour, lovely twin cam engine (ask the Morris Minor modifiers), stylish interior and some great colours. And you will never see one coming the other way....

https://www.autoscout24.com/offers/fiat ... c=listPage

Avail in 1300 and 1600 (but you probably know that and had one!)
93 964 C2
99 Boxster 2.5 > 3.4 hill climber

71 914/6 3.0 - gone

'You see Paul, hill climbing is like making love to a beautiful woman. You get your motor running, check your fluids, hang on tight and WHOA..30 seconds later it's all over!' Swiss Tony
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

andytat wrote:2 very different cars..... but what about a Lotus Sunbeam or Hillman Imp.

Andy
Sorry Andy - missed your suggestions.

They're not the sort of car I'm looking for though.

.
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

rhd racer wrote:
It seems you may be fairly set on the Lancia HF, but I though of another rarity last night which I have a matchbox model of in the loft and always liked. Unfortunately the Abarths have gone barmy price wise, although probably always have been due to low numbers made and rust / hard lives rallying, but what about the more subdued but quite brilliant 131 super-mirafiori. Big enough to tour, lovely twin cam engine (ask the Morris Minor modifiers), stylish interior and some great colours. And you will never see one coming the other way....
I'm a huge Abarth fan & one of my ultimate cars would be an Abarth-Simca or Fiat Abarth 'Bialbero' but nowadays that's only going to happen with a lottery win !!

The 131 Mirafiori is too 'boxy' for me I'm afraid ...

.
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
jonno1
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:36 pm
Location: Herts, UK

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by jonno1 »

Does this mean I win the cookie? :lol:
911hillclimber wrote:Image


LANCIA FULVIA HF 1.2
INTERNAL CODE: LAN00032

Extremely rare Fulvia HF 1,200 cc
the HF 1.2 was produced for only one year, as it was built to pursue a career in rallies, with the legendary Fulvia. From then on, Fulvia began climbing the Olympics of rallies, conquering countless victories.
Consequently this car represents an inevitable object for every collector and enthusiast of the brand

When Piero Castagnero designed the Fulvia in 1965, he was strongly inspired by the streamlined lines of the Riva motorboats, which at the time represented a sort of avant-garde of industrial design. The Lancia coupe quickly became the most well-known and popular of the Turin-based company: it was an elegant-looking car, particularly cared for in the finishes but with sporty performance. Made on the shortened platform of the sedan, the compact coupe of the Turin-based company was driven at the time of its debut by an 80 HP V4 - 1,200 cc engine. The power supply with two Solex double-barrel carburettors, combined with a 4-speed gearbox and a low weight of 950 kg, guaranteed this small sports car some remarkable performances.
The technicians, encouraged by the mechanical and chassis skills of Fulvia, glimpsed a possible career in racing and in 1966 they introduced for this reason, a more powerful version called HF.
This model boasted an 88 hp engine and a further lightened body: the removal of the bumper, the plexiglass windows and the use of "peraluman", a very light aluminum and magnesium alloy, gave the small coupe a significant feather weight and unbeatable handling.
Aesthetically, the Fulvia HF was recognizable by the yellow / blue painted band, "HF" logos and the Amaranth paint.

The HF 1.2 was produced only for a year with the intention of embarking on a long career in racing, climbing from there on on the highest steps of the world slowdown competitions.
The car of this service is one of the few and original Fulvia HF 1.2. The car is already ASI gold plate approved, in excellent general condition and mechanically impeccable. To date, this version represents an inevitable object for every passionate collector of the Lancia brand.
The car is in excellent condition
restored some years ago, in an original way
ASI approved with gold plate
license plate and regular documents
fully functional
We offer logistics and home delivery service.
Shipping costs are the responsibility of the buyer.
Wide range of cars & motorbikes in offer in our premises .
Car visible in Reggio Emilia, Italy
1958 356A Coupe
987 Gen 2 Boxster
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

.

So I had more or less decided that I would need to go out to Italy & try to get to see a number of the cars that were for sale in one go ...

However, at this point I noticed that a car I had been tracking in the Netherlands for a while had just had it's price reduced so I fired off a quick email to the dealer requesting some additional HF-specific details/photos.

My requests were met in full within 24 hrs which was a good omen, so after a brief phone call, I booked flights & a hotel.

Unfortunately on the day I flew out the weather was grim – freezing temperatures & intermittent sleet/snow showers - & although the temps improved a little during the day, when I arrived a Schiphol airport I was treated to monsoon rain conditions for the 70km drive to my hotel – which didn't bode well for my intended test drive the following morning...

The next day I was at the dealer's by 10am & given free range to look over the car for as long as I wanted – in a modern spacious/well-lit industrial unit – with plenty of excellent coffee 'on tap'.

I must say that this is the second time in the past couple of years that I've visited a Dutch classic car dealer & in both cases the experience was exemplary – allowed total freedom to inspect the car in as much detail & for as long as I wanted without any pressure whatsoever.

I spent ~ an hour checking out various aspects of the car before going for an extended drive – first as a passenger then driving – thankfully the weather had improved significantly & it was now dry & sunny.

So what were my impressions of the car ?

Everything checked out on the car - which was in wonderful condition - & it drove very well.

It was just crying out to be used more …

So I left the dealer's saying that I would think things over & contact him after the weekend when I was back in the UK.

To 'cut to the chase' I bought the car !!
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
User avatar
Bootsy
Site admin and the Boss
Posts: 25725
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:09 pm
Location: Norwich
Contact:

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Bootsy »

Had a feeling this was leading somewhere!
1972 911T | 1994 993 Carrera | 1999 986 Boxster |

Vintage Heuer, Omega, Zenith and other vintage watches - http://www.heuerheritage.co.uk
Winston Teague
Put a fork in me, I'm done!
Posts: 1868
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:41 pm
Location: Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Winston Teague »

Oh nooo, start to finish in 24hours, you can't do that to us, we need teasing, this should have dragged on for weeks, didn't even have time to suggest anything, so I'm going to anyway....Panhard or DB......
W

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk
Winston
'61 356 BT5 & a lot of broken chain driven stuff
Lightweight_911
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 17998
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:48 pm
Location: Worcs/W Mids border

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by Lightweight_911 »

.

Both good suggestions Winston - it's not finished yet ... :wink:

.
Andy

“Adding power makes you faster on the straights;
- subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere”
jonno1
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:36 pm
Location: Herts, UK

Re: Deciding factors ...

Post by jonno1 »

Bravo!
Lightweight_911 wrote:.

So I had more or less decided that I would need to go out to Italy & try to get to see a number of the cars that were for sale in one go ...

However, at this point I noticed that a car I had been tracking in the Netherlands for a while had just had it's price reduced so I fired off a quick email to the dealer requesting some additional HF-specific details/photos.

My requests were met in full within 24 hrs which was a good omen, so after a brief phone call, I booked flights & a hotel.

Unfortunately on the day I flew out the weather was grim – freezing temperatures & intermittent sleet/snow showers - & although the temps improved a little during the day, when I arrived a Schiphol airport I was treated to monsoon rain conditions for the 70km drive to my hotel – which didn't bode well for my intended test drive the following morning...

The next day I was at the dealer's by 10am & given free range to look over the car for as long as I wanted – in a modern spacious/well-lit industrial unit – with plenty of excellent coffee 'on tap'.

I must say that this is the second time in the past couple of years that I've visited a Dutch classic car dealer & in both cases the experience was exemplary – allowed total freedom to inspect the car in as much detail & for as long as I wanted without any pressure whatsoever.

I spent ~ an hour checking out various aspects of the car before going for an extended drive – first as a passenger then driving – thankfully the weather had improved significantly & it was now dry & sunny.

So what were my impressions of the car ?

Everything checked out on the car - which was in wonderful condition - & it drove very well.

It was just crying out to be used more …

So I left the dealer's saying that I would think things over & contact him after the weekend when I was back in the UK.

To 'cut to the chase' I bought the car !!
1958 356A Coupe
987 Gen 2 Boxster
Post Reply