RHD Bosch H4 lens question

[IanM]

Hello,

I'm trying to learn about RHD lens as I will be planning to buy some in the near future. Is this H4 lens in the link below the real deal Bosch? Are there any differences between H4 lens from 45 years ago and this one? Is this made in Germany?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1RcAAMXQ ... -l1600.jpg

Thanks in advance.

[inaglasshouse]

There are current repros with Bosch markings. I don’t think they have anything to do with Bosch. Bosch sold / spun off that division and it’s now called Automotive Lighting; their H4 lenses have an “AL” logo.
Last time I looked the repros were close but not perfect. I seem to remember the Bosch logo was raised inside the lens, whereas originals were raised outside.
I’m sure others know much more than me.
I do have some original RHD H4 lenses - can post pics if it helps?

[IanM]

Yes, please post pics. Thanks

[IanM]

Hello inaglasshouse, have you forgotten about this thread?
Still waiting for the photos.

By the way, I can't see the AL logo in that photo in the link I posted. Can you please clarify?

[inaglasshouse]

Apologies - I thought I had an original set in the parts stash, but when I looked I think they are also repros. I reckon the originals might be on my '69 car, but can't check until next week (car is not stored at home at the moment).

Regarding the logos - my point is that the current repros with Bosch logos (like your pic from eBay) are not made by Bosch or any company associated with Bosch. Someone (perhaps multiple sources) is cloning the original look of these parts - they are everywhere - but Bosch is not one of those sources.

The descendant / spin out company of Bosch is AL, "Automotive Lighting". If you were to order a new H4 from a Porsche centre, you would receive a part made by AL. The LHD version of the lens would look like this (no Bosch logo, instead a little AL where that logo used to be):





Images from the Pelican Parts website - for more info search 911-631-113-00-OEM on the Pelican site, and / or have a look at John Audette's relevant page http://www.audettecollection.com/h4-refurbishment/

[Dougieboy1]

arent the period lenses also supposed to have clear glass at the top where the more modern lenses have a pebbled finish?

[IanM]

Thanks for the clarification regarding the AL logo.

I seem to remember the Bosch logo was raised inside the lens, whereas originals were raised outside.

Maybe you're confusing it with H1 lens?



If a new H4 lens comes in a Bosch box, will it be real? I can't imagine Automotive Lighting being allowed to sell products in Bosch boxes..

I've been looking at various pictures on Google and it seems the main difference is the absence of long numbers under the E1 or E4 logo on the early/original lenses.
What does the E1 or E4 mean?

https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazona ... cc0106.jpg

[inaglasshouse]

What does the E1 or E4 mean?

Country of manufacture. E1 = Germany. E4 = Netherlands.

Bosch is no longer in this business. AL is. It was set up as a joint venture between Bosch and Magneti-Marelli.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-Automotive_Lighting
AL has the rights to produce the product and it's correctly type approved (hence that's what Porsche supplies). But as you say they don't use the Bosch logo.

I really think there is no such thing as a brand new Bosch H4 lens.
There are brand new lenses with Bosch logos. Those are just copies, not made by Bosch, in my view there's some trademark infringement going on there.
And there are used / new old stock lenses from when Bosch was in the business.
I don't know the visual differences between the current copies and the proper old ones. But interested to find out... hopefully someone who knows their stuff will turn up soon...

You're probably right - regarding the raised lettering I could be confused with the H1s or indeed the Hella SB19 20 21 lenses.

[IanM]

What does the E1 or E4 mean?

Country of manufacture. E1 = Germany. E4 = Netherlands.

Bosch is no longer in this business. AL is. It was set up as a joint venture between Bosch and Magneti-Marelli.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AL-Automotive_Lighting
AL has the rights to produce the product and it's correctly type approved (hence that's what Porsche supplies). But as you say they don't use the Bosch logo.

I really think there is no such thing as a brand new Bosch H4 lens.
There are brand new lenses with Bosch logos. Those are just copies, not made by Bosch, in my view there's some trademark infringement going on there.
And there are used / new old stock lenses from when Bosch was in the business.
I don't know the visual differences between the current copies and the proper old ones. But interested to find out... hopefully someone who knows their stuff will turn up soon...

You're probably right - regarding the raised lettering I could be confused with the H1s or indeed the Hella SB19 20 21 lenses.

Thanks for the info and the link to Wikipedia about AL, and John Audette's page.

So, if a new lens in a Bosch box was dated before 1999, it'll be real, shouldn't it?

Regarding country of origin, I have seen headlamps made in Czech Republic with E1 coded lenses. Strange...

John Audette mentioned in his page that there were two types of H4's - one with city lights and one without. What does he mean by that?
The parts catalogue only shows one type of H4 as far as I know.

[IanM]

arent the period lenses also supposed to have clear glass at the top where the more modern lenses have a pebbled finish?

Yes, the book by Dr. B. Johnson says that. I think the clear glass at the top was discontinued after a very short time.

[Dougieboy1]

What does the E1 or E4 mean?

John Audette mentioned in his page that there were two types of H4's - one with city lights and one without. What does he mean by that?
The parts catalogue only shows one type of H4 as far as I know.

There are 2 positions for the front side light. Either in the indicator box (hence the clear part of the indicator lens) or in the actual headlight. Th side light in the headlamp was the solution for the US market where the front indicator lens is all orange and only acts as an indicator. Presumably, at some point, the porsche boys decided that 2 solutions to the same problem was an extra complexity and cost and so moved to the US solution which would work in all markets - and given the majority of all porsche production was sent to the US, the logical solution

So the majority of H4 reflectors have the side light built into them - this means a hole for the main bulb and a smaller hole for the side light - also different bulb holder.

My car is a 72 and at least for that year of non-US cars, the sidelight remained separate from the headlight in the indicator box. Difficult to find original H4 reflectors with no sidelight hole as the vast majority of production would have been for US market cars. Franz/Moito is selling 2 on Early911 at the moment. The alternative is to weld up the hole and re-mirror the reflector.... bit tedious and the end result is not brilliant.

[IanM]

Didn't know that. Thanks.

Difficult to find original H4 reflectors with no sidelight hole as the vast majority of production would have been for US market cars. Franz/Moito is selling 2 on Early911 at the moment.

I've just taken a look at the ad -

a) It says it's for 4487 (SWB). Will this work with H4's?
b) Are LHD and RHD reflectors the same?

[Dougieboy1]

Am not a headlight expert by any stretch of the imagination but as far as i am aware, the reflectors are common. The adjustment for left or right is done via adjusting screws and the prism effect of the lenses. For what it is worth, Franz's reflectors look identical to the ones i have in my car.

The hard part is finding the correct bulb holder for these reflectors. Here is the back of an original unit i have as spare. You can see the bulb holder only has provision for the single main bulb



And here is the back of an H4 with the 'city' [side] light so the bulb holder has provision for 2 bulbs.




If you want H4's with the city light instead, i have a set i would sell that i was refurbing until i dicsovered i needed the ones with no city light. The reflectors have been remirrored and they have the bulb holders, adjusters etc. You would need lenses and depending on how you felt, new chrome trim rings.


Regarding my earlier comment about the pebbling or not of early lenses, this is the lens off my spare unit.



You can see that the top sector is clear, no 'pebbles'. Unfortunately, it is a LHD lens so not any use for my car.

[IanM]

Thanks for the pics.

I've just checked the parts catalogue (1965-1969) and apparently the reflectors are not common. Part number as follows:

Reflector LHD
901.631.103.00

Reflector RHD
901.631.103.01

So, they're not the same. Does anyone here know if they can be easily converted?

I think Franz' reflectors are LHD versions as he's from Germany.

If you want H4's with the city light instead, i have a set i would sell.

Thanks for the offer but unfortunately I don't require city lights either.

[IanM]

Dougie,

Coincidentally, somebody has just posted a couple of pictures showing reflectors in the link below. I think the first pic is an early H4 without city light hole whereas the second pic is 4487 (or 7045 if it's RHD). They look very different so I don't think they are interchangeable.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums ... mirror-WTB

Furthermore, the bulb shield look different as well (H4 welded, the other one has tabs through drilled holes).

By the way, speaking of drilled holes, Franz's 4487 reflectors don't appear to have these at all. I wonder why?