6 volt starter bush puller

[Hugo 356]

Hi all,

Does anyone have the 6v starter bush puller tool they are willing to lend me? Will cover postage costs if I can't find one locally (Reading).

Cheers
Hugo

[Ashley James]

Have you got a Tap?

[vwgillybilly]

Just use an m12 tap on a ratcheting tool.

They usually come out easy.

Gill

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

I know its said everywhere a starter armature that is allowed to drop in the starter body because of bush wear will be very sluggish on cranking speed, but its not the only cause. I see you have a 356A maybe still with the original starter? The sealed solinoid has contacts within, these if dirty can also give the same symptoms.

Is your trouble cranking speed?? There are other things to check first. Maybe you have done that??

I do have a puller I bought from Stoddard. I loaned it once before and one of the legs tips was broken by accident. I reckon it will still work though if you are really stuck.

Have you removed and replaced a starter before? If not there are a few tips you need to know that might prove helpful??

In the end in after so many attempts to solve the problem of slow cranking I had the motor overhauled by a fantastic guy in Essex. Best £200- I have ever spent on my 356.

The tap would work, but not so much room to get in there if you don't have a lift.

Roy

[Hugo 356]

Thanks fellas. I've read in a number places that a tap will do the job, but recommendations vary from 1/4-18 to 14mm via M12 and 1/2 inch, none of which I nor my local hardware store has. They recommended tapdie.com but the chap I spoke to there was unusually unhelpful and I didn't fancy spending £9 per tap + shipping to see which would work best.

I suspect the problem is mechanical rather than electrical as the slow cranking is accompanied by an electrical burning smell and the starter spins well (and odour free) by connecting the two bolts on the solenoid without inviting the pinion to the party (per John Muir) - he doesn't mention the face-burning sparks in his book though.

Cheers Roy - I've read a few posts on this including a couple from you. Removing the starter with engine in and axle stands was fun. I'm looking forward to getting it back in (especially that top bolt) and I won't be too surprised if I go through this ordeal to find no improvement... Glad I didn't shell out $60 for the Stoddard puller now if it has a tendency to disintegrate next to the open transmission housing!

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

Although no doubt you have already done it, an electrical smell on trying to start up and its very sluggish on turn over would make me really clean the earth connections at the battery, the transmission to body earth and on the solinoid apart from the main connections there is also the thinner wire that goes from the solinoid through to the ignition switch.

That wire was badly corroded on mine and I had to cut it back to get to good copper and make good. It was not my problem but could have been. Those connections all need to be perfect. As your motor spins well by the shorting exercise the brushes and commutator I presume are working okay along with the armature and field windings

As the start up amperage is very high, any bad connections will with the required power involved, heat up relevant parts. Do you have an idea where the smell is coming from? Is it near the ignition switch? or under the car? Voltage drop just makes me wonder about connections. The ignition switch also has contacts and if they are a problem....

I expect you have done all that but had to mention!!

Roy

[Hugo 356]

Cheers Roy,

I've replaced the ignition switch, shined up the battery ground and gearbox / body grounds as part of recent previous electrical shenanigans. The electrical burning smell is definitely coming from the starter motor. I'll give all the starter connections a good clean up before it goes back in.

My feeling is the motor is working hard but binding which feels consistent with what I've read about wear in the bell housing bush.

KTF
Hugo

[POR68]

Hugo, do you have a starter relay fitted? These do help and can be made for a few dollars with the easily available circuit. However, which bush are you referring to? The brass one in the bell housing? I recently changed mine out and it took 5 mins with a long socket as a drift. The motor was out of course ...

As Roy suggests, best to have the starter and solenoid checked by an expert auto elec.

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

I can see from what you said you have followed all the rules and thats a great start to isolate the problem. Merv is correct you can shorten the circuit so to speak on the long heavy wire from the battery and will save on burning ignition contacts but now you can say for sure the smell is from the motor then it becomes clearer.

When I first had slow crank when the engine was hot I got the advice to change the bell housing bush.
I thought it would be totally worn out when I removed it. On all my records to the very early 60's the bushing had not ever been changed. I measured the bore on removal with a telescopic gauge and micrometer. The difference in bore size to a new one was really only a few thousands of an inch with little ovality. It never cured the slow crank problem.( however still a good idea to start with a new one.)

When you remove the motor if your starter is original the solinoid cap is riveted on in place. Inside
the solinoid are 3 copper contacts. Rob at Broadway Electrical Services, Grays Essex 01375 372 782
drilled out the rivets and replaced them with nuts and bolts. They were really burnt and dirty. It took him some time to get them right.

I could not establish if the armature and field windings were good you need the special meters to do that. Again you need special jigs to hold the motor to run it and to check the solinoid. You should not try to do it without the proper equipment. I had heard if the armature drops through bush wear the field windings can be damaged.

Taking all that into account I decided to send him the motor. The result of his work astounded me, the motor spins hot or cold just like a modern cars 12 volt. I smile every time I start it.

As I said before it was just over £200- but peace of mind now.

Rather like the Accumate battery conditioner I have had working now for 3- 4 years really good investment. Keep us informed and remember the top bolt on the starter can be reached by laying on the left hand side of the car with your hand over the transmission. Also unclip the wiring harness underneath near the starter to get better access and push it gently away.

Let us know how you get on

Roy

[Hugo 356]

Cheers Roy,

I took your advice and dropped the starter off with Rob at Broadway to look over. Will let you know the verdict...

KTF
Hugo

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

Now that was a good idea. After my last mail on this subject I remember speaking to Rob and him telling me the main connection from battery to starter solinoid was at the solinoid end had really Been subject to high levels of heat and the interior contact was heavily covered in carbon . Maybe that was the same as yours and thats where the smell was coming from. Will be most iinterested in hearing his comments!!

I will try on my next mail to put a pic of my starter as returned to me from Broadway, looking actually like new.

Roy

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

One pic of the starter after its recon.



Roy

[neilbardsley]

Cheers Roy,

I took your advice and dropped the starter off with Rob at Broadway to look over. Will let you know the verdict...

KTF
Hugo

Good choice. Rob knows what he is doing.

[Hugo 356]

Hi all, bit of a follow-up as I’ve had some fun and games with this. Firstly, despite undergoing chemo, Rob at Broadway is still re-building starters and has been really helpful in resolving the issues we’ve come up against.

The main reason for the burning smell was the solenoid which was replaced along with an overhaul of the starter. Upon re-fitting, I was congratulating myself on getting the top bolt in, when I found the pivot pin prevented me from getting the bottom nut on. This small bolt on the starter body had been fitted the wrong way round (an easy mistake in the circumstances) which resulted in interference with the large bottom nut. Off the starter went again for the bolt to be turned around (a quick job but needing care as it goes through the actuating lever).

In the meantime I had noticed one of the blanking plugs on the right hand carb was missing. Carburetor Rescue had them, but the first one they sent didn’t arrive so they dispatched a second. When that finally arrived I bonded it on with JB Weld per their recommendation.

I re-fitted the starter for a second time (by now I’m getting 356 withdrawal symptoms and quite looking forward to a drive), turned the key and click, but the starter wasn’t turning the engine. It had been tested on a rig at Broadway so should have been working fine. I tried a different borrowed Optima battery with the same result. The starter would engage if I jumped the ignition key circuit and my multi meter was reading 4v under load at the starter end of the activation circuit, which per the manual should be enough to pull in the armature.

I cleaned up the earths to no effect, then Dick Weiss on the Registry forum suggested looking at the starter solenoid as he had had a similar problem. The starter had been re-built with a new un-branded pattern solenoid. Rob sent over a used Bosch solenoid he had in the basement which I fitted after pulling the starter for a 3rd time (I’m getting quite good at removing and installing the starter) and bingo, so far the car has been starting reliably.

I’m not sure if I had a dodgy solenoid, if everyone running the new solenoids is using a relay or if my car insists on Bosch, but maybe one to note if you experience similar problems…

Next job is to fabricate an adaptor so my SK carb synchrometer will work with Solex 40 PII 4s – currently the enrichment nozzle prevents a clean fit – does anyone have an economical solution that doesn’t involve cutting the rubber on the synchrometer or the risk of something falling down the barrel?

KTF
Hugo

[roy mawbey]

Hugo,

Thanks for the update I did wonder how you got on. It would seem? the starter you took into Rob for repair had the aftermarket solinoid fitted on to it? Although Rob identified it was that item like I also thought, that made the burning smell.
The original Bosch solinoid he has now supplied has the 3 copper contacts I presume like mine. Did he clean those contacts by removing the end plate on the solinoid with the rivits and replacing those with nuts and bolts? Or did he just make an electrical check of the item, before he sent it to you?

It is not possible to buy the early solinoid and the later ones are for later 356 so presume the motor is different as well on B and C cars.

Really pleased it worked though and tell me did you check the starter bushing for size? I presume its not been changed.

Three times getting that thing on and off is not the best of jobs well done on that.

Roy