Really cheap 73 RS carrera, be quick. ...

[mycar]

Then in Jan 2009

"To one and all

Re my 1973 Porsche 911 2.7RS Carrera Touring.

I cannot believe that people think I would openly sell a car that could be described as 'an illegal and fraudulent'. Those who know me personally, know I am a totally 100% honest person and feel that my integrity and reputation is being questioned.

I will endeavour to explain the position, because my reputation is at stake here - and also explain how and why, the car is in fact, a genuine 2.7RS Carrera Touring!

I purchased the above car in late May last year from a UK seller as a genuine 1973 2.7RS Carrera Touring. Shortly after purchasing the car I got an email from the seller, saying that the car was re-bodied. Having thought I was buying a 'genuine RS' and not a re-bodied RS, I asked for my money back. This request was refused.

I was then faced with taking it on the chin financially, or going down the legal route to get my money back. I had little option but to choose the latter because of the high monetary value of the car involved. This has proved to be the most horrendous and stressful period of my life, both financially and personally and resulted in the closure of a business I was running at the time.

Legal proceedings were started and after a period of time, the defendants Solicitor in the case, decided to request a detailed 'Expert Witness Inspection and Report' to be carried out on the car. This proved to be a most enlightening element in the legal case and brought about many points of vital and previously unknown information about the car.

I am in possession of this report, which was undertaken by one of the World's leading, best known and respected RS experts. He had to answer and address a multitude of questions raised by my legal counsel.

The 7 page report confirmed that the car had been re-bodied (like so many other RS's that were used in some form of competition as this car probably was in it's early years). However, he also reported that the VIN number and its stamping were the 'original' 1973 Porsche factory VIN plate and had the original Porsche factory stamping. The expert involved in this report, also asked for a 'second expert opinion' on this highly pertinent point. He also confirmed the VIN # and stamping were the original 1973 Porsche factory VIN plate and stamping.

Because I am selling a totally legal and genuine 2.7RS Carrera Touring, this report is available to any potential buyer and will stay with the cars comprehensive history file in the future.

Many other areas and points were covered in the report and I have advertised the car as a re-bodied and genuine 2.7RS Carrera Touring, which is exactly what it is and the expansive experts report, confirms every single detail to prove this.

Whilst the car has also appeared on other forums, I am the one who has been down the legal route to establish the car's legality, identity and authenticity, so I am one of the few people on the planet who know about this car and would appreciate that people dont jump to conclusions too hastily before knowing the full facts.

If this car had its original body and was in similar concourse condition as this car currently is, it would be selling for around the £150,000 mark. Whilst an RS replica in this condition, would sell for around the £55,000 to £65,000 mark. After talking to several RS experts, who all said the same thing, that the price of my car would be 'in between' these figures - and thats exactly where it is at £105,000 or near offer.

So just for the record .... I am selling a re-bodied genuine 1973 2.7RS Carrera Touring which has a newly rebuilt engine, a brand new Porsche replacement gearbox (done at the Porsche factory) and is now back into it's original Porsche factory colour of India Red - the paintwork is concourse.

The legal process has cost me a heap of money, but I now know I am selling a totally legal RS which has been proved through the legal process.

May I finally point out that so many other RS's were re-bodied because of what they were used for it their day - racing and competition use. Many were crashed, as this car probably was, and Porsche ran out of RS bodies back in the 1970's.

I am not a dishonest person in any way, shape or form. I am selling what has been proved to be a fully and totally legal re-bodied 1973 2.7RS Carerra Touring (exactly as I have advertised the car).
I hope this explains my position and what I have been through over the previous 12 months to unearth and uncover the cars previous history.

I would dearly like to keep the car as it's superb to drive and is in concourse condition. But because of a new business venture, the car has to be sold and will be sold with all the pertinent facts I have uncovered through the lenghty legal process and route I have undertaken - this of course, will be disclosed to any potential purchaser.

Paul Ripley "

[C3s]

Why did the seller disclose that the car had been re-bodied after the sale? Seems odd, or am l missing something? Not a criticism, just curious and a big fan of the marque.

[sladey]

[911MRP]

I'm not sure that's what the report says. I think it was used to prove that the seller did not misrepresent the car. I think that is different from saying definitively legally whether it is RS1316 or not.

Love to see it though.

Graham

Interesting and potentially important distinction about the that ruling . Particularly if there is another 1316 ( genuine) out there be it in Japan or maybe elsewhere.

I remain interested in reading the "report" and now given this comment by graham, intrigued by the actual legal case /ruling!

[smallspeed]

the saddest part of this tale appears to be that the guy..

a) got shafted presumably for somewhere in the region of 50k (ie difference in the prices between an RS rep and a gen RS at the time of purchase) and as a result went to court over it
b) lost his business in the process
c) the car went up enough in value between purchase and sale ('09) to pretty much cover the 50k anyway
d) in jan 2009 he had to sell to fund setting up a new business

..I don't remember who was talking about taking people to court only a couple of months ago, but this is a prime example of either taking a deep breath, then driving it and enjoying it OR ruin your life and make some lawyers fat

[911MRP]

At a recent high profile car event I had a chat with a so called "expert" who was preening and polishing someone else's RS, ( not the car under discussion however). I won't name the individual concerned. He proceeded to tell me things about car in front of him that I knew from my own research were factually incorrect. Tried to share what I knew from my own research on that chassis and its previous ownership history, but was just talked over by him with a loud, brash confidence. I simply walked away having learned something very useful to me -- that was another so called expert who had struck themselves off my "who shall be entrusted with my RS list"! I shan't repeat what my friend who witnessed this exchange said about him but it wasn't complimentary and friend is in the market for an early 911 ( or Dino) and had already visited the dealer concerned. Customer prospect lost.

If a judge who after all cannot be expected to be a specialist in niche motorcars has to take onboard expert witness input into their legal ruling, from episodes like this I can see they could be influenced by confident testimony and report/s. Would be interesting exercise for a group of knowledgable DDKers to read the report contents alongside the actual car. As previously mentioned by others, it also depends what matter the legal case was actually ruling upon and what the legal ruling actually said.

Why did no one during legal discovery process ask Porsche Classic in Germany? They as a part of the Manufacturer had previously inspected the car in Germany and previously expressed a view, allegedly, at least according to a previous owner's postings on www. Would the manufacturer's findings and viewpoint, if what was posted by previous owner is correct, have made any difference to the ruling?

Don't have an interest or affiliation with the car but like to follow the early 911 marketplace.

[Nick Moss]

I am quite familiar with the car. It was Autofarm who did the first inspection, they spotted the incorrect shell within minutes of first seeing the car. Paul approached me to help with its restoration and I gave advice and refurbished some of the anodised parts for him, but I'm not sure who actually carried out the paintwork. I had a look at the car at the auction, yes it was very nice. The 6 page report by Andy Prill was available for perusal at that time on request. As reported above it was in the form of short questions and "justification" that the car was as described, a 2.7RS. I would have contested around 80% of its contentions. There is much more that I will not repeat on an open forum and please do not PM me for more info. IMO it's a replica that can be identified as such within seconds. £70K

[KS]

From what I heard only recently, Porsche Classic is no longer prepared to verify the authenticity of cars such as an RS, presumably on legal advice. Sad times if that is indeed true.

All I can say is that I am for once rather glad that there is no way as journalist I'll ever be in a position to buy an RS, or similar. Greater pleasure to be gained from driving a car which delivers the same, or better, performance without the worry of discovering you've been shafted!

[redrobin911]

Greater pleasure to be gained from driving a car which delivers the same, or better, performance without the worry of discovering you've been shafted!

I couldn't agree more - and even better if you've had real input into the specification and build. I have a nagging 911 hotrod itch that might need scratched.......

[911hillclimber]

I started to scratch my '911' itch in 1989 and still scratching the same car.
'hot-rod' as it is, looks stock and enthuses many including me after all these years.

It is nothing special and is not put forward as special, but it is to me.

I'm sure this 'RS' would be the same for someone at a hot rod price, whatever that is.

[mycar]

Have you read the thread hillclimber ?

Now you've got a bit of time on your hands I can highly recommend it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... -read.html

[sladey]

It's a bit like a game of pass the parcel - seeing who's holding it when the music stops.

Though that one linked to earlier (yellow one sold for 240K) seems similarly astonishing to me - different engine, gearbox and body shell. What are you buying - the carpets?

[coomo]

This type of carry on is one of many reasons why I escaped to this forum.There was a time when "matching numbers" was an alien term in the motor trade.I first encountered it about 30 years ago, when Mustangs became an interest.
Now we have not only inherited this phenomena, but a myriad of other "essential" requirements that must be met, to justify in some cases ludicrous car prices.Where will it end? Ok so the shell is not original.Guess what.Nor is the paint composition, the underseal the metallic composition of the bearings,etc etc.Its only original and untouched once!
I understand it.I just dont like it.The ridiculousness of a cars identity having to be ruled in a court of law, almost leaves me speechless.
The recent "hotrod" trend that has become popular is maybe a backlash to cars being owned purely for speculation.Do whatever you wish.Get lost in the adventure, do something that doesnt equate value with currency.
If I want to own something purely as an investment, ill buy a painting and hang it on the wall.Cars are for driving and having fun with.Honestly what is the point in owning a car
that can do little else but cause sleepless nights?
I bet there are some buyers out there looking for a Cossie that hasnt been reshelled!!

[KS]

At least with Cossies there's a good chance the original shell will turn up buried somewhere on Canvey Island.

[911hillclimber]

I'm with Coomo.
My 911 has good agreed value so if it goes it does, break my heart and take away over a 1/4 of a century of my automotive life, but it is honest inc the DIY LHD to RHD conversion derided by some here, but been good for 20 years.
No sleepless nights for me.

The values on these classics must be an irritation if you fear using them, but worse if you fear they are not the Real Deal.

Anything valuable gets 'faked' in the end when it becomes THAT valuable, but here is a hot rod with a little Trigger's broom to it and if £70K ok in today's world.

I can't be bothered with a huge report on the past, adds to the colour but not is a deliberate deception was underway, but the car is exposed for all it is?