Parts from OPC - NOS or Reproduction?

[IanM]

As you may know, if the parts that you wish to buy from your local OPC have to be ordered from Germany (as opposed to Reading), they are non-returnable and have to be paid in advance (sometimes in full), so how do you know if the parts will be NOS or reproduction?

If the parts turn out to be reproduction, then I would want to send them back for a refund, but the ordered ones from Germany are non-returnable so it seems very risky to me, isn't it?

Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Ferry Man]

If you buy parts from an OPC they will be genuine Porsche. Why do you think they would be anything less?

[hot66]

I'd assume any pre74 stuff is reproduction these days. I'd Imagine the stock of NOS stuff is long gone. ( I have no facts to back any of this statement up though )

[210bhp]

At the recent Glasgow event celebrating their elevation to premier classic supplier status I got the impression from various speakers and employees that Porsche are keen to fill as many holes in their classic inventory as possible. This must mean that there are no NOS original items left and any 'new' parts will be remanufactured to fill those holes. It doesn't matter to me where they are made, ths means they are not NOS but remanufactured and almost certainly, in most cases, not by the original suppliers. Of course Porsche are going to be very careful to vet both suppliers and parts but this does not always work out, their new orange badge for example, to their advantage. Old period parts are 'used' but original and finite. Andrea in Italy prides himself in mainly advertising NOS original parts (where does he find them?) but of course these are at a price. So, there are three types of parts available in my opinion,

Reproduction/remanufactured
Used original
Truly NOS original

It is always a conundrum which to use to produce a 'nice' example of an early 911. The Porsche Classic department in Germany now classify any model over 10 years old (as I understand it) as a classic so their inventory of parts must be close to massive so some of the later parts might well be truly NOS but unlikely for pre 74 models.

I had an interesting discussion at the end of the evening with the Glasgow classic parts manager about brown carpets mentioning that I have a truly NOS full set and his comment was "can I borrow a piece so that I can send it away to see if we can get our carpet supplier to copy it". There's your answer right there.

Regards
Mike

[jtparr]

Hi Ian
When you say reproduction, are you wanting new parts to still be made and stamped West Germany, that's long gone, so is Germany ok ?....Paul now has a fuel pump, from Porsche, but it came with a Made in China stamp on it...assuming it was made for Porsche by an approved supplier then theoretically it is still a genuine part...guess it depends how original you are hoping for
My local Porsche centre has always been reasonable (Guildford) as I quiz them as much as I can before I buy parts that I want to look totally original (for which refer to recent post request I had for NOS hose clamps)

What are you looking for ..perhaps if it's particularly vital a component you could ask on here and see where others have bought from for that part..?

Regards
Jonathan

[inaglasshouse]

The wise fellows above have covered it. Hideous can of worms for sad detail freaks (like me). Caveat Emptor.

If you buy from Porsche it will very likely fit, and probably work (unless it's an ignition coil), but there is no guarantee it will be identical to the original in
- materials
- finish
- overall quality
For example, if you were to buy a new gear knob from your OPC tomorrow, part number 90142401400 for the 901 'box, it would look like this:

(Image from http://www.classicshop.porsche.com/pcos ... 01400.html)

If, on the other hand, you found a nice used original, it would look like this:




Some would say close enough, some would say the new Porsche part looks and feels nothing like the original.
Unfortunately for me I am a saddo and firmly in the latter camp, so am trying to use NOS and refurbed original parts wherever I can. Sometimes that means paying a fortune to one of our friends in Monza or Karlsruhe or similar. Other times I get lucky on eBay.de.

Gear knob is just an example, of course. As Mike says, take a look at the new Porsche orange bar hood badge. Or a coil(!), or a fuel pump, or the interior arm rests, etc.

Cheers, Richard.

[fetuhoe]

On Saturday, in Essen, I was looking at a 1966 Restoration carried out by Porsche Classic and featured on their stand.

Selling price was, I believe 339 000 Euros,

It had around 12 obviously incorrect parts fitted in the engine bay and luggage compartment. Most of them were new Porsche Classic Parts and others had been restored and incorrectly finished.

It seems clear that in general the attention to detail just isn't good enough and this for the premium prices being charged is disappointing.

[Slope330]

+1 and far far worse .........they really should be ashamed ,is it ignorance ? or just a way of drawing less knowledgeable people into their Classic partnership game ?
Ironically i spoke to 2 Porsche employees on the same stand that were very well informed ,however the i dare to suggest the majority had nt a clue ......................great coffee though

[210bhp]

Unfortunately the same is happening to their coffee. It is nice but not like the original taste back in the 70's. For many years I've suspected the blend of coffee has be diluted by manufactures slowly over the years just like the chocolate cocoa content in Kit Kats has been reduced slowly over the years (the chocolate crumb is made here using milk from Ayrshire cows) being replaced by cheaper sugary substitutes. They do it slowly so the customer doesn't notice the taste changes.

So Nescafé original is now 50% coffee bean content to what it used to be and suddenly Alta Rica and others are introduced in smaller jars as is like Nescafé original used to be but can now be charged at a premium price. Clever.

Same with the ever increasing ethanol content in fuel. The fuel that your dad and my dad used to buy every day is now a premium product.

At one time wasn't every food organic? Now it suddenly has been elevated from the normal to the premium product status it is sold for.

There are many things when compared side by side, original and new, which are just not the same. I know a Porsche bonnet badge is one of those products. Does it matter? Only to a few and a reducing number as the generations roll by, after all you won't get many kids today saying they don't like a Kit Kat. However, those sugary Kit Kat kids are tomorrows diabetics and that what keeps my very busy clinic turning round so I can buy only original Porsche parts rather than reproductions

Regards
Mike

[inaglasshouse]

+1 and far far worse .........they really should be ashamed ,is it ignorance ?

I really don't know.
In the case of restorers (as opposed to manufacturers of parts), I can see why a new repro part is used. The car needs to be finished on a reasonable timescale and the customer won't usually pay for an infinite number of hours tracking down something NOS.
That's one of the things I like about doing the parts sourcing myself - I can regard my own time as a free of charge resource, and I can be gradually amassing parts as they become available. No rush.

But if you're going to the trouble of manufacturing a part, surely it's worth the effort to get it right? Seems a bit strange to me that people like Eric Autoforeign and Andrea Nosgruppe seem to do a much better job than Porsche Classic's own suppliers. Although in fairness they are offering a small range of (nicely done) parts, as opposed to trying to cover the whole PET.

[smallspeed]

I work for a big company (ranked somewhere between google and pfizer) and am responsible for aftermarket parts for one of our product lines. Its always a struggle to get parts for older vehicles because when they were new they fell into one of a few camps..

1) manufactured by us
2) manufactured for us by someone else
3) manufactured by someone else and used by us

..I doubt Porsche is any different

In the case of manufactured by us (think body panels and things in the case of Porsche) we retain the ability to make parts to the original drawings, but usually it will not be off the original tooling, OR it will be off one of many original sets of tooling and so may not be a 100% perfect swap for the part that you're replacing. The tooling is subject to wear and tear, and over time will degrade to the point that it might not produce original finish parts. It may also get to the point where it requires minor refurbishment which effects the parts, or it will get to the point where a major refurb is not viable and the tooling is replaced, or might be sold off to a third party. This will always be an approved supplier who is capable of meeting our specifications, however in some cases we will take parts which are "market standard" (for example made to an ISO standard rather than our own which is usually higher)

In the case of "made by someone else for us" - we usually own any tooling, and so we have access to that, however once production ends and the active population of vehicles declines, the production supplier is not likely to want to keep this business, and so the tooling would be moved to one of a few specialist small volume manufacturers (mostly in Europe or the US) to make batches of parts at long lead times (and high cost) as and when they're required by us. Again these parts will be manufactured to our specifications and in a few cases replaced by an alternative market-standard part and branded

In the case of "made by someone else and used by us" we're totally at that suppliers mercy! We almost entirely use large volume and reputable manufacturers (for example Bosch or Siemens) and they usually retain the ability to make these parts, but similar to the "made by us" parts they're made from one set of tooling, or in the case of machined parts, are often run-off decommissioned (for mass production) machining centres and things. We also find a lot of these parts are farmed out as the population declines OR are replaced by alternative newer parts which are backwardly compatible.

Recently we are seeing more and more of these manufacturers setting up camp (production) outside of the traditional manufacturing bases though - for example India or China - and some of these older parts are moved out to these locations too. Some of these parts are made from new tooling, as its cheaper for a manufacturer in China to cut new tools than it is to recommission an old one. In these cases the parts can be cosmetically different, and often material specifications are different too..

Porsche / VAG would be subject to exactly the same situations as us (in fact all manufacturers will be unless they 100% make everything from scratch in house) and so its not surprising that parts are appearing which are cosmetically slightly different, or even in terms of overall quality. Its also not surprising that proper "NOS" parts for older vehicles disappeared from Porsche and VAG's shelves a LONG time ago! If you consider the active population of Porsche vehicles, the money lies in selling parts for 996's, 997's, Boxsters, Caymans, etc and (like it or not) NOT the older stuff. Also, like it or not, Porsche and VAG are a business, hence all about making money....and they're good at doing it! I'd also wager they make almost ALL their money from parts sales and finance, and not the cars!

The nice thing is, because they're good at making money off the new stuff, it allows them to continue supporting the older cars too, and setting up things like Porsche Classic.. Unfortunately cars like the one mentioned above might not appeal to the die-hard fans, but it will carry a lot of weight with the investors and things

[Slope330]

TBH i m not that worried by who or even where the parts are made , perhaps having experienced the failure of several Bosch, made in Brazil coils i do care a bit !
My point would be that Porsche who fight tooth and nail to protect their name leave themselves open to this kind of ridicule by lack of proper research or just plain don't care ...................i hesitate to bring it up but the CoA department in Reading is a prime example of really could nt care less if your going to set up Classic Partnerships etc surely its worth doing it right ,or why bother ?

[smallspeed]

..in fairness they are offering a small range of (nicely done) parts, as opposed to trying to cover the whole PET.

You hit the nail on the head! There is no cut off for things like this, and so they have to support EVERYTHING to the best FEASIBLE level they can. Its not possible to supply NOS parts for pre '73 cars and nothing else, because the IB Crowd will be moaning, as will the 924 and 928 owners. Its also not possible to run a business making production quality parts for ever, for everything (for Porsche OR for their original suppliers)

Take the gearknob example - its VERY unlikely Porsche made that in house, but the original supplier is probably long gone OR has moved onto making something else (for example 991 gear knobs). They probably sell 10 a year, so its not feasible to make these 100% to the original specification/tooling, etc. If they did, they'd be £1,000 each and everyone would moan about the price.. Also the original material may not be available, the original mould tooling has probably been refurbed or even replaced, etc., etc..

Its a game of diminishing returns supporting older vehicles, just be grateful Porsche are doing it - a lot of manufacturers have lists of NLA parts leaving their customers screwed! If you get hit up the backside in your Audi RS2 for example, forget about replacing the rear lights!

Also, a lot of dealerships have NO IDEA about older cars - if I go into OPC Leicester now I'd wager there'd be at least one air cooled Porsche being spannered in their workshop. In contrast if I went into BMW Leicester, I'd wager there are more Mercedes in their workshops than pre 2010 BMW's - they had to bring some poor sod out of retirement to adjust the valve clearances on my car at its last service, and I had to argue with the service manager for over an hour that a) it could be done, and b) needed to be done first!


No offence to anyone, but you old car guys (old cars, not old guys) get a pretty good deal from Porsche in terms of parts and service support. Mercedes are up there too, but there aren't many others with them.. The trouble is you're an anal bunch, hence the minute details matter to you. That's a good thing, but as the old saying goes..

We can do cheap, quick, or right - pick two

..in the case of 99% of customers, especially when it comes to car parts, they want cheap and quick! For the older car parts, its a case of striking a balance, and unfortunately that brings with it shades of "right"

[inaglasshouse]

We can do cheap, quick, or right - pick two

I'm finding, having picked "right", that I can forget all about the other two!

[smallspeed]

yeah I think when you get to the point of things being advertised as "NOS" cheap disappears off the option list..