Distributorless Ignition

[Brewster]

The CDI+ does look pretty and easy to install. It is a few hundred quid dearer than when last I enquired and you didn't have any stock for sale at that time.

Out of interest, how exactly does it control the timing? It obviously picks up a signal from the hall sensor in the distributor for the engine speed and the vacuum physically advances the distributor gubbins, but how can it control when the spark is delivered to the plugs? Is that not determined by the rotor arm? Or does it change when the spark fires at certain points while the rotor arm is in contact with each socket in the cap? I wouldn't have thought that would be a big enough contact point to have that adjustability. Certainly not by, say, 30 degrees.

[Jonny Hart]

The MSD 6AL Programmable can be yours for £400 landed in UK, so is the Classicretrofit unit at 1k+ VAT worth the extra?

That's for you to decide.

The MSD is a mass produced generic igniton unit (btw also needs 'MegaBlaster' coil, new leads and a rotor arm that won't burn out). Ours is a bespoke unit designed specifically for the 911 only.

I don't know of any 911 engine builders in the UK that use MSD. Try getting a quote to have one installed and setup. You may struggle.

Our units are designed, manufactured and built in the UK. Each case is machined, hand finished and hard anodised or an original case is refurbished. We aren't a volume manufacturer, we care about these cars and the people that run them. You will get full support including software updates for the life of the product. The cars are all slightly different and installation issues can arise with any update to an old car. We will be here to help, at the end of the phone, not in an online chat box.

Yes, a grand is a lot of money. Quality bespoke parts for 911s (SSIs, PMOs, rebuilt MFI Pumps for example) aren't mass market and the price reflects the time and effort that has gone into the design and the small market size.

We believe there is a market for folks who want original looks and fitment and don't want to drill holes in their car or modify their wiring loom. 'MegaBlaster' stickers by special request only...

[Jonny Hart]

The CDI+ does look pretty and easy to install. It is a few hundred quid dearer than when last I enquired and you didn't have any stock for sale at that time.

Out of interest, how exactly does it control the timing? It obviously picks up a signal from the hall sensor in the distributor for the engine speed and the vacuum physically advances the distributor gubbins, but how can it control when the spark is delivered to the plugs? Is that not determined by the rotor arm? Or does it change when the spark fires at certain points while the rotor arm is in contact with each socket in the cap? I wouldn't have thought that would be a big enough contact point to have that adjustability. Certainly not by, say, 30 degrees.

We turn the distributor physically in the advance direction to give the box the signal ahead of time. The box actually delays the spark. The most delay gives the least advance. E.g. If the dizzy is physically 15 degrees ahead and we wait 15 degrees before firing, that's zero advance. If we waited zero time that'd be 30 degrees advance (engine degrees is twice distributor degrees).

Your second point is what is called 'rotor phasing'. The worry is that the rotor is so far from the post that the spark does not jump to it, or worse, it jumps to the neighbouring post. Extensive testing with 'skeleton' distributor caps has shown that this is not an issue with the 911, as the timing adjustment provided by the distributor rarely needs to be more than 25 engine degrees, certainly never more than 30 degrees. 30 degrees engine is only 15 degrees of rotor arm. On my SC, I run a 3.2 arm, the contact of which is about 40 engine degrees wide. We set up the least advance to be near to one end of the post. As the advance comes in, the arm gets nearer the centre.

We also have another way of setting up which does not require any locking of the distrbutor at all and completely eliminates rotor phasing altogether. This has proven to be surpisingly effective on early cars where the distributor is hard to lock without taking it out. I won't post the details here but it's in the manual which I must get put up on the website.

[neilbardsley]

Here is another possibility

http://www.123ignition.nl/id/50.html

There is a 6 cylinder version. I think you can do 3d matching with it if you have a pipe form the carbs. I have the 4 cylinder none programable version on my 912

[Nick Moss]

I don't know of any 911 engine builders in the UK that use MSD

Redtek have fitted MSDs to several of my cars

[Tony]

Here is another possibility

http://www.123ignition.nl/id/50.html

Been there done that! Result was a very smooth easy to drive car and gained a little in torque.
Original distributor was worn which is why this offered a good solution.

Tony

[Brewster]

Here is another possibility

http://www.123ignition.nl/id/50.html

There is a 6 cylinder version. I think you can do 3d matching with it if you have a pipe form the carbs. I have the 4 cylinder none programable version on my 912

They look great, offering all the functionality I want and at a reasonable price, but for some reasons it says up to '77 only... I wonder if that's because my distributor is one of the ones that runs backwards?... Hmmm

[911hillclimber]

123 looks great!
the rotation is auto-detect by the dizzy, nice. Other auto detect too!

The UK dist is a VW specialist who do not list the 6 pot version, but the 4 pot is £350 for the top model + vat I imagine.

Tony: how was it on the hills?

I ask this as my Lola-Porsche has a 3.2 on PMO/RS distributor/coil/points and spends it's life WOT or fully closed...

It starts well cold or hot, runs well and WOT's well Not sure anything will better this 'Morris Minor technology'

[Jonny Hart]

Here is another possibility

http://www.123ignition.nl/id/50.html

There is a 6 cylinder version. I think you can do 3d matching with it if you have a pipe form the carbs. I have the 4 cylinder none programable version on my 912

They look great, offering all the functionality I want and at a reasonable price, but for some reasons it says up to '77 only... I wonder if that's because my distributor is one of the ones that runs backwards?... Hmmm

You can run a 123 but you'll still need a spark box. You could use your 30 year old CDI but if you're really looking for performance at least have it tested. I have a few boxes here that will run an engine but aren't working as Bosch intended. The Bosch CDI 'soldiers on' but can be well past its sell by date in terms of spark output and timing accuracy. The 123 only has ten advance points which is a bit mean.

Factor in installation, rewiring and setup time - more dosh to commission the system and you've still got a CDI box that could fail at any time.

[Jonny Hart]

I don't know of any 911 engine builders in the UK that use MSD

Redtek have fitted MSDs to several of my cars

Maybe, but it ain't their weapon of choice...

What was the total cost of installation? I was quoted 5 to 6 hours labour to install an MSD system. That's just to install, not setup.

Having spent two years developing our product, we've 'done the math', the bottom line is this:

If you go for a generic solution (123/MSD), you'll pay in labour to modify the car's wiring and mounting panels to suit. If it doesn't work, you're on your own or paying the installer to figure it out.

if you go for our bespoke solution, it will cost a bit more but we guarantee it to fit straight on the car without modification and will work with all the standard components. If it doesn't for whatever reason we will support you as it is in our interest to be the best product in the 911 market place.

I did an install today on Gary Hall's Carrera 3.0. All done in 30 minutes.

[Brewster]

Johnny, like I said, I like your product and admire what you've achieved. You didn't have any stock all summer and now you have the price listed on the website it's well into four-figures for the functionality I want.

I appreciate the CDi unit I have will be old, but so is my distributor and your product needs that too. It'll still need dyno runs to make sure the advance it set right so it'll be £1500 by the time I've finished and that cash buys a Bitzracing EFI setup which given I'm still on CIS would probably be money better spent. As an industrial electrician a £350 complete Megajolt setup is very tempting and my wiring time is free to me. If I want go the route of ease of installation the 123 looks a doddle.

Had it been £800 for your unit I could just about have justified it to myself, but I'm getting towards the end of my build and the well is running dry. It's a nice product and if my CDi unit does fail it may force my hand, but right now it's a step too far.

[Jonny Hart]

Yep, understand and we'll leave it there.

BTW, your old dizzy will be fine as long as it turns freely and the drive gear isn't completely worn which is unlikely. Weights and springs won't matter as they'll be locked. Also, FYI, the original CDI box has an error of around 3 degrees over the full rev range.

Previously, I just wanted to point out that some solutions have hidden costs. It pays to research the full cost of install, rather than suck up the sales blurb.

[Gary71]

For reference this is the provisional 3D map I ended up with when my 2.4T was (briefly!) running EDIS and a Megasquirt ECU:




Tim has probably refined this to death now so that I imagine it looks nothing like it!

[Gary71]

Probably worth dropping the original distributor curves into the conversation for reference:

[Brewster]

Thanks Gary. That map will be a great starting point if I go the EDIS route.