DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Vic Cohen · Post by **Vic Cohen** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:59 am

ironically i am told by those who ve seen it laterely, it actually looks and runs very nicely .....................

Nick Moss · Post by **Nick Moss** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:10 am

All due respect to Peter Ratcliffe of Legends In Time for being honest in the description. I met him at the Silverstone Classic 2 years ago when he had just bought a 2.7RS from France with an interesting private entry Monte Carlo Rallly history for IRO £100K. He sold it shortly after at auction for IRO £200K. I will reiterate that I consider this car to be a replica with some nice bits on it. I hope any potential purchaser does his research dilligently.

Nick Moss · Post by **Nick Moss** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:12 am

Vic Cohen wrote:ironically i am told by those who ve seen it laterely, it actually looks and runs very nicely .....................

I have seen it a couple of times since it has had all the money spent on it (some of which came my way for the window frames

) , most recently at the Goodwood auction and it certainly does look nice.

Lightweight_911 · Post by **Lightweight_911** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:32 am

Vic Cohen wrote:.............i am with Nick , cant believe that Maxted Page lent their name to this farce !

Just because a a set-up regularly has whole page glossy adverts & sells (usually very nice) high-end cars it doesn't make them 'a leading UK Porsche RS specialist' ...

Vic Cohen · Post by **Vic Cohen** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:39 am

Fair point , and i wud suggest Mr P s speciality is in 356 s nevertheless he wrote the report , the court i guess made their findings ........if indeed it reached the court???????? BASED ON THE FINDINGS .........plus.................

backed by a glossy name , we find ourselves debating in a public forum a car which is clearly not an r s ..........for those with strong opinions i cant see how this does their reputation [ crucial for their market] any good at all ?

or if u prefer all publicity is NOT neccessarily good publicity!

gridgway · Post by **gridgway** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:42 am

I'm ok with it actually. The car does have a good history and good public documentation. I think that *we* are being narrow minded in as much as we don't have enough categories for it. It's clearly not a replica and yet it's not original/genuine by the normally accepted criteria (although there is an argument that M-P made that it actually is).

So it's unique and the market can decide on how it values it. I think the current seller has done a very good job of marketing the car with its uniqueness. The market will decide the value. If someone buys it at a price and then regrets it when they learn more, then they should've done more work.

In a sense I regret buying the rep I bought. It was definitely not as it was purported to be, I bought in haste without enough knowledge and without proper DD. Now as it happens, it'll all work out well and my car will end up being what it should be (a first class rep made by restoring a T).

That's the world of old cars and and back on topic LiT are at least putting the info in the public domain for prospective buyers to be able to make their own choices.

Graham

964RS · Post by **964RS** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:40 am

As far as I'm concerned Graham the definition of a replica is something that 'replicates the original' as this does.

If you took it to Germany and asked Porsche to confirm it was the original they would not, hence it can only be a replica?

gridgway · Post by **gridgway** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:22 pm

That's ok Jason as far as it goes and it could well be a replica, but it's not empirically testable as to what that means. The point though is that if the seller is representing the actual history (which they seem to be doing), then the market will decide the worth of the car.

The range of what people class as an RS rep means that each one has to be judged in value by the market in that way. You see them at 15k and all the way up. So to class the pesto car as (for example) a "good RS rep" as if that gives an empirical value is not sensible. I'd like to think my RS rep will be one that's "worth" 40k once it is fully commissioned and debugged. But only the market will tell when I come to sell it sometime in the future.

That's why I think that 1316 is in a great place where the seller is putting the info in the public domain and trying to get a good price (being higher than it last sold for). I admire them for that.

Graham

964RS · Post by **964RS** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

No totally agree with you on what LIT are doing - first time its been advertised as such and you have to take your hat off to them. Wonder how much they knew when they bought it?!!

Off to look up meaning of "empirically"........

Nick Moss · Post by **Nick Moss** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:12 pm

"1316" as you call it is no more than a 1973 T sportomatic with a genuine RS motor and an RS identity. I think it almost defines the term "replica"

Vic Cohen · Post by **Vic Cohen** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:28 pm

While the matter of openness is to be admired Nick has described it perfectly.................................want to know the one abt the rst that was owned by a well known Motor trader for abt 20 years to find it was an S with some nice rs bits ???? I unforgiveably wrecked it in the '70 s on ice and well known people chose to forget they had reshelled it on the basis people wud forget in time .....................in those days we were talking £26k

or the 993 GT2 written off and reshelled on a turbo 4 shell , not even seam welded , i would suggest is a nice 9933 tt with some lovely gt2 bits on it..................been in several mags as gen and looks lovely,but IMO its not a GT2 which been traded as ,more than once since rebuild ............at genuine gt2 money , albeit lower end

As someone has already said we have access to info now on an unprecendented basis so we can do our homework and buyer beware

However IMO, and absolutley NO disrespect to the current seller, this car was deliberatley built as a fake to decive and traded with major misrepresentations and has already caught 2 unsuspecting people out at rs money ...............

seawise · Post by **seawise** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:54 pm

despite the fact it's a rep, i would imagine it's one of the best reps. at 50k i would be tempted - get it undersealed and use it as a daily driver. run it for 6-9 months and sell it for similar dosh.

Mike Usiskin · Post by **Mike Usiskin** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:32 pm

Vic Cohen wrote: 993 GT2 written off and reshelled on a turbo 4 shell , not even seam welded

a caveat...Not that I know anything but .........

if a car is sold as a GT2 (and used as such) but isn't seem welded as the GT2's are (?) doesn't that make it unsafe? Couldn't the owner/driver come to serious harm if he/she is throwing their GT2 about on a track etc only to find it isn't quite has 'solid' as it should be. Sounds dangerous to me IMHO obviously

M

Nick Moss · Post by **Nick Moss** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Seam welding is an additional strengthening feature in addition to the standard spot welding and is normally only applied to competition cars. It's not a safety feature but to help stiffen the shell to allow the suspension to work more effectively. An integral roll cage will add far more torsional stiffness to the shell than seam welding.

Vic Cohen · Post by **Vic Cohen** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:28 pm

Nick is of course correct Mike ...my point only ur not getting what itsays on the tin ..in this case literally! Therfore u cant say its a GT2 ................i was always led to believe that with older race cars the integrity and title of the car was in the shell....................so a T is aT is aT...however many things u hang on it and reshelled RS s with T bodies do not = rs s !