Need ideas for engine rebuild

[58A - 71E]

Thought I'd ask the advice / views of the DDK flat 4 brains...

I have stripped the engine of the '58A (should be a 1600n) and found it has been rebuilt at some time on industrial engine cases. This as it turns out is probably a good thing (stronger than normal cases and probably less worn). I think the rest of it is probably stock 60bhp.
But what it does mean is that its not a matching numbers car and therfore I'm thinking to return it exactly stock as a rock is possibly an opportunity missed whilst its all in bits.
Now I have no intention of upgrading from stock suspension or from drums to discs, so a 120bhp 912 based screamer or highly modded VW lump is definitely not the goal, but are there upgrades that people have experience of a la 911 where there seems to be an infinite number of subtle upgrades available at rebuild time? Didnt really want to replace the Zenith 32 carbs either which may also limit options unless folks convince me otherwise.
What d'ya reckon?

[58A - 71E]

Oh and we're talking pushrod engines here - cant seem to find that spare 4cam in the garage

[Helen]

speak to Andy Prill. http://www.maxted-pageandprill.com/index.html

what he can do with a 356/912 engine is unbelievable.

my standard 1600cc 356c engine is now 1700cc

[Mr Pharmacist]

A big bore piston set would be the obvious upgrade i think. Shasta pistons are the ones to go for.

[hot66]

keep it stock , but great detail payed to the balancing etc + gas flow the heads etc .... a nice touring motor like they were in the old days ..... then strip the 911 motor again & build it into a screemer instead

[Ian Gunney]

Given what you are looking for, I think that I'd be tempted to put a set of Shasta's in and leave pretty much else stock - that's how my 912 motor is and that goes OK - I don't have any experience of Zeniths mind you...

worth posting on the 356 registry site - you should definitely get some views there!

[Mr Pharmacist]

A full flow oil filter would be another good mod too!

[Dakota]

Hi
my advice would be keep it simple , don't replace any parts you don't have to etc etc, the Zeniths are great little carbs and don't really wear out with their chrome spindles in cast iron base's you can re-jet and re-choke them to suit different engines and they are cheap too, do a search for bobs carburretors for parts, as for the motor go for a super spec as far as cam and compression go and you will need the alloy rocker gear too if you don't already have it , as for barrels and pistons a decent set of 1720's can be used with some modification to their crowns as can C pistons , this is assuming you have A or B type heads with their shallower combustion chamber angles , a 200mm flywheel would be a good idea as clutch choice is easier and cheaper , as you have a split case transmission you don't want to go nuts as far as engines are concerned as the torque tries to spread the cases as they don't have the stiffness of the tunnel case boxes that followed, a later style oil cooler from a later Bor C etc would be good and I would not bother with the bag of worms a full flow oil cooler /filter set up opens up, and don't be drawn in to the tuning to the max route some seem to be drawn into as one of the delights of a good 356 is its grunt and to go for top end horse power tends to spoil that , and some of the horse power figures quoted are rather inflated anyway

[Lightweight_911]

I'd second the full-flow oil system mod.

If you're going to opt for the Shasta piston upgrade I think you'd need to modify the heads to C/SC/912 spec or use later heads.

It's a slippery slope though - upgrade the cam (or replace with SC/912 version), change the conrods (to 912 rods), etc ...

[Ren]

how about scrap the ski lift engine and shoe horn a 911 lump in it.

Ha no Mods all depend on what you want to achieve.

More power - longevity - got to be big bore kit and PM oil filter.

[roy mawbey]

As you said in your post keep the Zenith 32 NDIX's. Spend the money on other things to uprate it but as you say don't go too far otherwise the ancilleries like the transmission will need yet more work to match correctly the engine cabability.

Maybe I'm getting old, but 75 bhp is okay for me on the road. Used to want more after I occasionally drove 911 but then its an ongoing thing once you have more power then you want just a little more etc, etc,.

When younger I spent months tuning a Norton motorcycle engine to keep up with my friends Gold star. Gas flowed the Ali head but removed just a little bit too much from behind the valve seat. When they come loose and drop behind the valve at high RPM it sort of ruined all my work and my finances!!!!

I expect most of you reading this think actually I should be submitting items to the Morris Minor forum!!!! (I had several of those also years ago.)

But I am sure though you will do a good job.

Roy

[58A - 71E]

Well it looks like the majority think that the oil system could do with some upgrading - isnt it something like only 8% of circulating volume hits the filter?
TBH its those sort of upgrades (better oil flow/pressure - improved cooling etc) that I did to the 911, rather than squeezing every last bhp out of it, although I'm sure a couple extra wouldnt go amiss.
I think it deserves a proper balancing/gas flowing but I think apart from P&C (although need to look into this more) I wont be replacing it piece by piece with SC/912 parts.

That said, I'm not sure what's actually in there yet and havent measured everything in terms of tolerances so may be forced to change regardless.

So far I've found a 009 dizzy which has been replaced (thanks to Ian)
Industrial pushrods which Andy Prill said definitely not to use and some knackered push rod oil tubes (thanks Dave for helping to source replacements)
and a totally knacked cam gear (but I have my father in law to thank for that )
I think at least one of the cam lifters is fooked and the heads are shot (valve guides and valves)
thats before measuring crank and rods

Oh and Roy, 75bhp you say... luxury

[58A - 71E]

DDK'r John Fletcher tried to post on this thread but his pooter is having a problem or too so I've posted it here too

Hi James,
Thought I'd pass on some comments - unfortunately due to computer errors I can't seem to use the DDK forum.
I agree with a lot of points already mentioned but I'd just add that if you go the 1720 route there are other implications, namely, you need a later crank (C) with the bigger centre bearing, later con-rods and a third crankcase piece with larger oil pump. Some things are advisable anyway, i.e. steel cam followers and at least the late B con-rods and the large oil pump.
If you stay with the std. pistons then the A /B crank will be OK. Incidentally I managed to buy a new set of S pistons with rings and pins from US ebay for $260. They all want big bore stuff.
I think the 180mm flywheel is OK with the original none-diaphragm clutch and you can get a 9 spring version as used on the Carrera which I think was fitted to the VW transporter.
I bought a £10 digital scale which is accurate to 0.1 gram and I've balanced pistons and rods because it costs nothing except time. I'll probably get the c/shaft and flywheel balanced too because the numbers don't match - yours may be OK.
Because things get mixed up on these old engines you need to check that bits match such as the ports in the manifolds and heads and the type of distributor. I'd definitely stick with the Zenith carbs.
They only made 3 types of cam, the Normal, Super/S90/SC and the C. They are identified with a 0, 15 or 16 stamped next to the slot. Interestingly the C is a milder cam than the S making it a more tractable car for the same power - I presume their head and piston improvements were enough.
BTW Barry Curtis can supply a drive plate which solves the problem of severe wear on the oil pump drive slot.
My gut feeling is to replicate what they did in the works except for the design improvements I've mentioned.
If you've read the book "Backfire" by Alan Clarke, the now demised randy MP, he had a few 356's over the years and his observation was that nobody could rebuild the engines properly and that the best one was the Damen.

John

More to chew over.....

[Graham]

a well put together 75 motor,with time taken matching the ports to manifolds and getting the insides right are a joy to drive,I read an intersting article about how the factory engine guys went through all the motor parts and assembled engines with standard parts that were to exacting specs,though spent time porting/polishing and tweaking and got for more than the 75hp out of them!
Also a good big bore kit on a standard well put together engine with zeniths are great too.