Bit of a problem...

[shelltoes]

I have a little problem that is playing on my mind and I would like you guys and girls opinion please.
I put my 914 in to a garage for some mechanical work on a major part of the car. Its run by a nice guy, we talked through at length what I was wanting and expecting, I could not have been more clear on the fact I did not want to spend much money on it, so much so my girlfriend told me to shut-up about it…
Anyway you can see where this is going, I missed his call in the early part of the week but returned it a day and a half later to be told its all done. Great!
Unfortunately then came the bill… Almost as much as I paid for the car! Bugger.
I can’t pay it and more to the point, don’t want to spend that sort of money on this car either. I did not authorise any where near that sort of spend.
Any suggestions please? I want to do the right thing but i dont want to spend all my savings and more on a basically doggy 914...
Ta.

[abash914]

Difficult situation, we've all been there, I'm sure.
What if you talked to him to find out if he could either take a hit for a speedy resolution or (if it suits you better) take staged payments? Would that be a Starter for 10?? Hope you resolve this to your satisfaction... You say he's a nice bloke, well time to test that!!

AA

[Timo]

Hmm, pretty tricky really seen as the work has been done. Did he give you a quote before the work was done? If so you should be able to argue thats how much you agreed on. If you didn't have a quote I'm not sure there's a lot you can do as the term don't want to spend a lot is kinda subjective really.

[Nick Moss]

Coming from the repairers point of view, I think it will be very difficult to take the car away without paying a large proportion of the bill. We are loathe to let a car go, especially if there is some disagreement about the amount due, unless that amount is paid or there was a previous agreemen about staged payments, and that would normally be with the final payment on completion and collection. The ultimate sanction that a trader has is to sell the car to pay the bill, but that really is the last resort. Can you be more descirptive aboutthe work carried out? Was it related to safety issues?

[pmjt]

First and foremost - I agree with Nick - it's rare for traders to do a dirty on a customer.

That said - there are some principles of law here (and I'm no lawyer - so you should get some advice:

1) What contract was in place? A contract does not have to be written - a verbal contract, although harder to enforce, is still a binding contract. IF you gave instructions that you only had £xxx to spend and made it quite clear (perhaps you went with a friend who heard this??) then the garage owner cannot without your agreement incur more cost than this. However, and this is a biggy - IF you said "please fix xyz problem" and did NOT specify how much you had to spend, then you also entered into a contract without specifying terms - i.e.: how much you had to spend.

2) Is the price charge fair? A court would take the view that, in the absence of a written or oral agreement was the price charge 'reasonable' - in some extreme cases professional experts are brought in to deduce whether the price charged for the work performed was fair. However, this is at the furthest end of legal action - and not something to get into lightly.

My personal advise would be, go and see a Citizens Advice Bureau local to you - explain the problem HONESTLY - if you miss out salient details and the whole thing goes to court, if you've missed some detail out or been inaccurate in your description of the circumstances you could be in even more hot water for your legal costs and those of the garage.

Armed with advice from the CAB, go and talk - calmly - to the garage owner. If you can get across to them that you only have £xxx pounds and really don't have any more - for the garage owner to enforce their lien on the car and dispose of it is more hassle than they'll want.

Always remember that in these situations, jaw jaw is infinitely preferable to war war

HTH

P

[912uk]

blimy ... sorry to hear this..

What was the work that needed to be done?

over what time did the work take to do?

[shelltoes]

All good points thanks.

I didn't want to go into too much detail in case anyone knows him. But never mind…
It was a gear change issue (914, surprise, surprise).
I had taken the box to him previously to check if it was ok as I could not get 5th, he could get all the gears no worries so it went back in to hopefully be a linkage problem.
Later i took the car to him to diagnose the problem and hopefully fix it.
Turns out not to be linkage (I had reolaced a bunch of bushes).
Box out and split, we speak on the phone, a few bits are shot, ok bite the bullet and replace syncro bits. Fine, i approved that.
A few days pass, i miss a call, call back within 48 hours, loads more bits were lunched and replaced with out my approval.
I'm not saying anything untoward went on I’m sure the gear sets were ruined as he said but I would have stopped it there as the price we discussed tripled!
He has offered a substantial discount which I appreciate but we had discussed £7-800 not the massive £2500!!!! bill.
I hope I’m not messing him about but I cannot justify spending six months of savings on it…

[shelltoes]

Hmm, pretty tricky really seen as the work has been done. Did he give you a quote before the work was done? If so you should be able to argue thats how much you agreed on. If you didn't have a quote I'm not sure there's a lot you can do as the term don't want to spend a lot is kinda subjective really.

"not a lot" is subjective i admit, and i did not straight up say only spend £700 as, what do you know, the bill becomes £699...
But £2500 bill on a £3k car is a lot in anyones book i think.

[shelltoes]

First and foremost - I agree with Nick - it's rare for traders to do a dirty on a customer.

That said - there are some principles of law here (and I'm no lawyer - so you should get some advice:

1) What contract was in place? A contract does not have to be written - a verbal contract, although harder to enforce, is still a binding contract. IF you gave instructions that you only had £xxx to spend and made it quite clear (perhaps you went with a friend who heard this??) then the garage owner cannot without your agreement incur more cost than this. However, and this is a biggy - IF you said "please fix xyz problem" and did NOT specify how much you had to spend, then you also entered into a contract without specifying terms - i.e.: how much you had to spend.

2) Is the price charge fair? A court would take the view that, in the absence of a written or oral agreement was the price charge 'reasonable' - in some extreme cases professional experts are brought in to deduce whether the price charged for the work performed was fair. However, this is at the furthest end of legal action - and not something to get into lightly.

My personal advise would be, go and see a Citizens Advice Bureau local to you - explain the problem HONESTLY - if you miss out salient details and the whole thing goes to court, if you've missed some detail out or been inaccurate in your description of the circumstances you could be in even more hot water for your legal costs and those of the garage.

Armed with advice from the CAB, go and talk - calmly - to the garage owner. If you can get across to them that you only have £xxx pounds and really don't have any more - for the garage owner to enforce their lien on the car and dispose of it is more hassle than they'll want.

Always remember that in these situations, jaw jaw is infinitely preferable to war war

HTH

P

Nothing written down, but he did say 6 or 7 hundred.

For all the work done and parts used it probably is fair, i just did not want basically a full rebuild. I would have said don't worry, i get a used one.

I really don't want to p155 the guy off or go down the legal route, i just wish i had been given the chance to say no! That was one thing i really laboured, call before spending anything!

[pmjt]

Nothing written down, but he did say 6 or 7 hundred.

And how much was the work in the end???

If it was £750 - £900 then that's fair error. If it's two grand then he's misled you and, possibly, breached the verbal contract you created with him.

I really don't want to p155 the guy off or go down the legal route, i just wish i had been given the chance to say no! That was one thing i really laboured, call before spending anything!

The if you *did* labour it, you stated the terms, in part, under which you created the verbal contract with him.

Proving verbal contract is *very* difficult - unless you had a witness with you who can corroborate your claim.

Have you tried just talking to him - calmly - and say "look, I'm really sorry - I didn't plan on spending that much, I did try and explain that - and I can't afford it - can you help me out here?"

The garage will, generally, rather get some money and keep a customer than go legal with someone to exert their rights under lien - which is an ancient and ridiculous law.

P

[pmjt]

Sorry - just saw your earlier reply - you could go and talk to CAB - and possibly trading standards. If an indication was given of £600 - £700 and, without approval, he charges £3k then they'd be interested.

BUT from the description of the work, it sounds as if the price he charged was 'reasonable'.

What's left out in a verbal (or other) contract is as important as what's included. By NOT stating you didn't want a rebuild, in many ways the garage owner could argue you entrusted him to do the work, and in the absence of further instructions did what was asked - albeit it became a much bigger job and therefore more costly.

Dare I say it, it sounds like it's an expensive lesson in always defining the terms under which something is done - ideally in writing - before starting the process.

If it makes you feel any better we've probably all done it once in our lives

P

[912uk]

Hmm still not really on..

If I quote for a job ( OK I don't do cars.. I do houses and interiors ) as I get into it I always talk with my customer. I did a job 2 weeks ago where the customer bought all their own stuff for me to make up.. I said it would look to be about 4-5 hrs work I explained we had a standard 1/2 day charge..as I came to that time I then explained about what's happened where we are and what is likely to be the total outcome.

No company is going to do the work and then do lot more ( eg spend out on parts way above a spoken or writen amount ) with out checking with the customer.. The more I am looking at it, I hate to say it but your both at some sort of fault. You should have stated the limit on the job is X and to keep in touch with them. Two he should have once it started to become a bigger job insisted on seeing you or calling you to go though it.. I think you should go down there and talk it out.. but your right £2500 for a box is lot of money but Phil would know more about labour rates. Sorry to hear that your car has put you in this situation.. I would go and talk it though and be strong..try and meet in the middle.

[stuby]

Having read this with interest - and from a 'business' point of view... it seems that you gave him verbal authority to 'fix' the problem at a cost of around 'x'
He then has found 'extra' items at a cost likely to exceed 'x' - which he ought to have gained your approval for.
We certainly would NEVER had continued without approval
As I see it, the extra items have been fitted without your say so, and any decent garage owner worth his salt should understand this and come to a compromise
Suggest you offer to pay for the extra parts and him stand the labour - usually a good solution (provided you can afford to do that..)

Best of luck
Stu

[shelltoes]

As a small update on this, i think i have it sorted (ish).
The guy admits he should have checked with me so has brought the price down to a more reasonable level, still more than i wanted to pay but also much more work than i'm paying for too.
I guess we both chalk it up to experience...

Watch the sun disappear now too...

[stuby]

Pleased you have come to an agreement without it turning sour... usually turns out like that with 'decent' traders.

Stu