911 2.7RS

[210bhp]

Bert

You are so on the money with your last post. I could not have put it better myself.

There are so many 'little' things on an RS that only a true expert in the model can spot. You have mentioned quite a few names who I would trust to do the job.

I will give you one example.
There is only one sure way to tell if the front wings on an RS are original to the car and have never been removed for a paint job. I would like to know anyone inspecting an RS for me would know something like that.

Regards
Mike

[Spydermon]

not another mountain biker !! There are quite a few of us on DDK

Oh yes, though semi-retired! Won a few minor-league downhill races back in the day! Honestly if I start about bikes.............No, I can't, but if you know the tactile joy of an XTR skewer, then you know....


Steve.

oh god, don't start them off again
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16832

I'm holding back, but it's hard..... Never seen a rear mudguard on a Zaskar before.....Damn, I said it....Must...hold....on.

Nurse, cold wet towel and more pungent rub please....

Steve.

[Spydermon]

not another mountain biker !!

AAAAAaaaarrrgh.

Only joking naturally. It gets a bit scary if you start to break bones but I suppose that is commitment.

On the subject of Peter Morgan: I personally feel that his report is a good beginning but it doesn't tell a complete story.

If I were to buy a 911 and an RS in particular, I'd want someone who:

1.Can assess what is period to that particular RS and what not (e.g. factory delivered with some lightweight options but a touring bumper at the back)

2. Can assess what is original to that particular car and what has been replaced with reproduction parts (wings, bootlid, front windscreen, what serial number and build date are on the Fuchs? 15 inch SC wheels from 1979 or a set dated correctly from say 03/1973)

3. Can assess the quality of the restauration. An RS was a choice par excellence for rally drivers. A good number of them have been wrapped around trees, jumped left right and centre in stage rallys and what not. Have a look at the floor of some the RS's and you can sometimes see scars which were left as a reminder. A talented bodyshop man spots these things in a split second. Peter is not a bodyshop man. Also, what is the paint thickness. Porsche had 120 microns. Any quality restauration would want to emulate that as close as possible, unless the shell has been e-coated: that adds a few microns. Peter does not test this IIRC.

4. Can assess the state of the internal bit: engine, gearbox, suspension, brakes etc. Once again, I'd expect a compression test AND an assessment by a specialist such as Bob Watson, Fran Tuthill, Neil Bainbridge, Mike Bainbridge, Crispin Manners at Oak Tree, Jaz at Carrera Performance, Nick Fulljames at Autofarm etc.

Mike Bainbridge spotted in 2 minutes items that were not quite as porsche intended on my engine when I broke down with the car. Needless to say: its a waste of time and money bothering with anyone who can't do that. It is even more important to do that if 6 figures are at stake.

Peter Morgan's comprehensive reports are good and I do appreciate what the man does BUT my personal feeling is that this is merely "a good start" to get a feeling of the car.
*Edit* This is based on a number of £350 reports I have seen from Peter Morgan for more "common 911" cars. It might be different for an "RS" report.

Good luck in your hunt,


Bert

Wow! Thanks Bert, for the time taken and sharing of expert knowledge! This should be a sticky, or an article hosted on the site for posterity.
I'm probably coming across as some clueless type with more money than sense; but I'm trying to get as much info as I can as quickly as I can, and boy does this forum fit that bill.
I'm humbled and enlivened by the range of knowledge on this forum, and of course, everybodies willingness to share.
Thanks again Bert, I'm going to print this and keep it with me.


Thanks,

Steve.

p.s. Never broken any bones, but have been timed at 48mph down the course near Castlerigg, now that was something! (Damn, I must stop! )

[210bhp]

Mike Bainbridge has a very dry sense of humour. He has a very laid back approach and for those of us on his Masterclass last year we had a great couple of days. His willingness to share his expertise in a his very easy manner was something I for one enjoyed very much. He made us laugh and passed on lots of valuable tips. I am sure everyone there would agree it was an unmissable weekend. The main thing is that Mike has a lifetimes experience with marque and this is something you cannot put a value on. One of his 'throw away' remarks was how he can tell if an engine case has ever been split or if it is original from the factory. And this from just a quick glance under the crankcase. This is the kind of guy you need to inspect your engine.

Neil Bainbridge is the only guy who has worked on my cars. Mike (RSR) will testify that he is someone who has probably forgotten more about RS's that we will ever know about them. You only need to look at the work he is doing for Mike to know that his attention to detail is unsurpassed. He has probably seen the underside and inside of more RS engines than anyone else. This is the kind of guy you need to inspect your engine.

Regards
Mike

[Spydermon]

Spydermon,

Unfortunately (as a buyer) the market is still strong for proper cars (even despite the money/economy issues). There are lots of replicas around and also plenty of tourings converted to lightweights. In the 80's they were worth bugger all, the market has since rocketed so some have a chequered history. If you are happy to buy one that has been played around with, then personally I'd buy a replica as in effect that's what you would be getting. The difference between a pretend one and a real one could be GBP£70/80k so it's down to what you want to spend and how much you value originality. I'd buy a proper car everytime because it's something you will always sell. LHD now seem to be RHD money so I'd consider whether you will drive it more in the UK or Europe to make that decision. For sure there is a strong argument for LHD having a bigger market, but with everything the item is only worth what you actually sell it for, and if you look at the RHD cars Lee M-P has sold recently he doesn't seem to have a problem. A German dealer recently offered to buy my RHD.

And because of the values the're now fetching they are high profile so finding a "cheap" car won't be easy. Personally I'd buy a a fully sorted car with good history. They will always sell and, unless there's a dip in the market, you won't lose money although your outlay (and therefore return) maybe more. All those kids that hankered after an RS in 1973 now have grey hair, pot bellys (at least I do!) and a wodge of cash so demand is there.

Most importantly, buy the right car that fits your requirements, use and and enjoy it.

HI Michael! Thank you very much for taking the time to type and share your expertise. I sincerely appreciate it, and a fully sorted car is what I am looking for.
I also appreciate your honesty about the avoir dupois, but there is always Grecian 2000......
I also intend to keep this long term, and keep it special, and use it too.
My problem is knowing which of the cars available are the good ones. I haven't yet heard of any really top ones that aren't on the open market. I am kind of hoping that this thread will bring in those kind of links. I'm sure it will.

Thanks again Mike, and watch this space, I'm determined to get a good one, even if I have to go to Sydney to do it! Where did you get yours?

Regards,

Steve.

[Bootsy]

It is so important. I know of a car bought in the last two years - very clean but engine sounded a bit clunky - £25,000 later it's all ok!

[Spydermon]

Mike Bainbridge has a very dry sense of humour. He has a very laid back approach and for those of us on his Masterclass last year we had a great couple of days. His willingness to share his expertise in a his very easy manner was something I for one enjoyed very much. He made us laugh and passed on lots of valuable tips. I am sure everyone there would agree it was an unmissable weekend. The main thing is that Mike has a lifetimes experience with marque and this is something you cannot put a value on. One of his 'throw away' remarks was how he can tell if an engine case has ever been split or if it is original from the factory. And this from just a quick glance under the crankcase. This is the kind of guy you need to inspect your engine.

Neil Bainbridge is the only guy who has worked on my cars. Mike (RSR) will testify that he is someone who has probably forgotten more about RS's that we will ever know about them. You only need to look at the work he is doing for Mike to know that his attention to detail is unsurpassed. He has probably seen the underside and inside of more RS engines than anyone else. This is the kind of guy you need to inspect your engine.

Regards
Mike

Thanks again Mike, another great post, and as ever I am listening very closely. Do you think it would be an idea to go to either of the above named chaps and ask them if they know of any good ones for sale?
Mick Pacey (Export56) said that the rebuild on his recent RS cost 20k, is this the normal type of cost?
Pardon my ignorance; but if I bought a car that upon inspection turned up engine problems, couldn't these chaps fix it? Or is there something that I'm not understanding?
Should I talk to them first and perhaps get a list of stuff that needs to be looked for as suspect problems?

Would you consider the cars at Maxted-Page to be top ones?
More questions I know, apols.

Regards,

Steve.

[Lightweight_911]

To broaden your search as much as possible, it would be worth contacting David Gilhooley &/or Michael Chadwick who run the Carrera RS register within the PCGB as they often get to hear about cars before they're offered on the open market.

David Gilhooley can be contacted at: carrera@porscheclubgb.com or on 01628 620897
Michael Chadwick can be reached via a pm (DDK member FLY 7)


In addition, Russell Edmonds has probably bought/sold more Carrera RS models than anyone else & often gets approached by potential sellers - you can never have 'too many irons in the fire' so it's worth contacting him too:

Tel: 01993 778423 (Office)/07768 838283(M)

[sng45]

Hi Steve - ref my mountainbike accident , it was actually cross country riding in Dalby Forest - not really into downhilling mainly XC and road biking - got a big collection of Colnago, Cervelo, Gios, De Rosa road bikes - in fact did 53 miles today !
On the subject of collecting I've got quite a collection of the RS books if you're ever across this part of the country drop me a line - you're welcome to use them for reference if required

Steve

[Mike]

Steve, you have a PM

[Michael Birch]

Steve,

I found my car through Mark Waring and had it inspected by Josh Sadler (Autofarm) before I bought it.

David Gilhooley and Mike Chadwick were very helpful. Although whilst David didn't introduce me to the seller, he did know the car and owner very well so could confirm a few things. He also inspected the car so I could get a FIVA Identity card.

Lee Maxted-Page has sold a number of cars recently. I've dealt with Lee and find him good but he does know what a car is (or could be) worth. He is also in partnership with Andy Prill so the cars do get looked at properly.

Other sources not previously mentioned are;

- Export 56 - Mick Pacey.
- www.mirbach.de - a mate bought a lightweight from them 2 years ago which I did Tour De Espana in, Lee M-P then resold the car around 6 months ago.
- www.thiesen-kg.de - they had a ST that I looked at recently.
- www.classicdriver.com - there are 3-4 for sale on there
- www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk

Also see if you can get your hands on a copy of the French monthly Porsche magazine "Flat 6" which has a large classified section. I looked at a RS lightweight in France that was advertised in there.

(There are people on here much more knowledgeable than me on this however...) there were just over 1,500 RS built. An original run of 500, a further run of 500, then the remainder. Somewhere after car 1,000, around 1,200 I believe, the factory started to run out of the Lightweight body panels and other unique RS parts so reverted to using standard 911 items. For instance on the later cars the ducktail has a steel (and not aluminium) frame. One of the dealers mentioned here told me if the car was 1 of the first 500 then "it was something to talk about for the sale" but didn't really add monetary value.

For a car that hasn't been raced or rallied then original matching engine/chassis no's are important, and this info is easy to check in Konradsheim. This would add monetary value against a car without the original engine and seems to be important when buying/selling a RS.

If it has been raced/rallied then chances are it will have had a new engine at some point.

Conversely I looked at a proper GT40 last year and the original Ford engines don't even have no's on them, so for these cars the original engine seems not to be as important.

[elkelk]

Just going back to the original colours, "beige grey" is one i have not seen before. That would look great, did the "special order" actually get delivered does anyone know, it had a "0" next to it on the list..?

[hmy7k]

There is a RHD touring here that may be of interest.

http://www.martinchisholm.com/cars/listings/l0047.shtml

Nothing to do with me by the way.

[Bertroex]

"beige grey" is one i have not seen before

Aubergine



Dalmatian:



Lilac


Anyone wanted raspberry or fraise?






Ah Sepia brown. I came across #697 which was originally sepia, now gpwhite/blue. It would have looked something like ...



or with its carrera decals;



Not all pictures are necessarily RS's, but it gives an idea....

Irish Green





Is this pastel blue? Nick, can you tell?



Glacier blue




The pic is faded but I think as this is gulf orange....





Light yellow



Signal yellow



Olive



Vipergreen



the -original-gulf (GOLF) blue I understand


the later gulf blue


Leaf green



Ahh a bit of surfing on pelican....

Best regards,

Bert

[Spydermon]

To broaden your search as much as possible, it would be worth contacting David Gilhooley &/or Michael Chadwick who run the Carrera RS register within the PCGB as they often get to hear about cars before they're offered on the open market.

David Gilhooley can be contacted at: carrera@porscheclubgb.com or on 01628 620897
Michael Chadwick can be reached via a pm (DDK member FLY 7)


In addition, Russell Edmonds has probably bought/sold more Carrera RS models than anyone else & often gets approached by potential sellers - you can never have 'too many irons in the fire' so it's worth contacting him too:

Tel: 01993 778423 (Office)/07768 838283(M)

Thanks Andy,

I am in the process of joining the PCGB so I can access these two chaps; they have also been recommended by Geneve over on PH. Thanks again, I'll follow them up.

Russell Edmonds has come up a few times now as the one to contact, I'm rapidly getting a good overall view of the right people to contact and go about this. I'm so glad that I waited to find out more, I could've been right up the creek with a very expensive paddle to buy!

Cheers,

Steve.