73T brake refresh...

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911hillclimber
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73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Though this tale might be of interest to some on here.

The OSF brake was not releasing well, there was a cyclic squeek off the brake whilst at low speed, all other corners were silent.
Car braked in a straight line, no just this irritation, and as Andy lightweight would say, 'he needs a little project to do'.

After the car show on Saturday in the car, the wife watching F1 on Sunday, yesterday was a good day to start.

Last week it passed the MoT easy, but this 'sicking was apparent after the MoT, so I readied myself with a repair kit from Biggred bakes in Worcester.

The kit came with rubber seals and all new pistons all for the price of just over £72 collected, almost suspiciously cheap.
Parts all bagged up very professionally so a good start.

Started with the front brakes, then move on to the rear.

Callipers off easy and pads all marked up the dust seals were removed to reveal he expected rust on the piston face and the cast calliper body as expected.

Eased the pistons out progressively using the 100 psi airline applied to the hard line inlet side of the calliper and all came free eventually will a loud crack and fluid caught in a rag, eye protection needed!

A good deep clean and lots of scraping with a sharp scriber prepared the seal groves, and with grease applied from the kit the new parts lid into place.

Set the 20 degree orientation of the piston recess as per the Haynes manual. Still none the wiser why there is this recess in machined into the piston, but ATE will know better than me for sure.

The new dust seal popped into place and even the pesky steel clamp ring fitted!.

All good and back onto the car.

How easy can this get??

Well...

To the rear callipers. I expected the same breeze of a job, but oh no, this is DIY 911hilllimber style. Always, always a twist.

Stripped the callipers and far harder to get the pistons out, but won the fight in the end.

The trip wire got me when I saw the rear pistons.
The original M type callipers have a complex design with some kind of pad retraction device within the piston that takes a 4mm dia pin in the cast body.

The new pistons do no take this design in any way.

Fortunately the original pistons are is quite good shap, no rust on the seal surfaces, and I have two old but new ATE repair seal kits 'in stock' from some distant past so I can rebuild the rears later today.
Have asked Biggred if they make the right pistons.

Design 911 have the right pistons but they do not have the retraction device, obviously the aftermarket suppliers delete this (unnessacery?) feature?

Hope to get the parts all back on the car over the next few days and then to the Big Event, bleeding, but I have demon weapon, Mrs Hillclimber who is fully trained in pumping. :)

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73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
neilbardsley
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by neilbardsley »

Strange that the rears are different from the front? Would the new pistons have worked in the rear?

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911hillclimber
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

No Neil, the pin in the bore of the body is pressed into place, it is steel not cast iron.
Had a reply from Biggred this morning (a company that actually answer their emails!).

They understood the problem, and remove the said steel pin from the bore (with customer approval) to allow their pistons to fit.
They do not have the correct OEM spec pistons.

Thus, i will fit the originals back in to retain the feature.
Must be needed if Porsche thought it was required (?).

All a bit of a waste of £30 but what's new in classic cars?

Resuming the rebuild this afternoon.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Rears all together now. Forgot to check the 20 degs orientation on the calliper and found I'd fitted the pistons at 20 but with the bleed nipple downmost, needs to be upper most, but everything being nice and fresh the pistons tightly rotated round to the right position using old pliers.

Hope to fit everything up and start on the bleeding battle.
So far about 4 hours!

This must be a £500 bill in a garage?
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Everything back on today with no fuss.

Did the full bleed after with the help of the Boss, well trained in these matters.

To my surprise a firm pedal and no pumping up after just 4 'laps' around the car, a fist for me I think.

Will do a hard braking on the pedal again tomorrow after leaving the car for 15 hours to settle, but looking good.

On to the next job, getting the thing much quieter.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Took the car out today to test the brakes. Several emergency stops etc and no leaks.
However, the pedal free movement is far greater than before as the pistons are all now retracting freely!

I need to adjust the pedal movement from 60mm to something far less.

Haynes book states 1mm free play from the master to the push pin (hidden by the rubber bellows, so that is the next job.

I guess this will give about 20mm free movement before the brakes come up against the discs(?).

any advice?
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 20612
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Still not happy about the car's brakes.

Have closed the clearance to about 1mm (as Haynes Manual) for the rod to master cylinder plunger, but the brake pedal is still 40/50mm until the brake are on.

Retardation has always been weak , but seems less efficient now since this re-seal and bleed.

Going to see what clearance there is between the pad backing plates and the pistons.
Will also re-fit the shims that have always been in the callipers since I had the car but left out this time.

Irritating.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
neilbardsley
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by neilbardsley »

What are you not happy with the travel or bite when is grips or fade in the pedal as you drive?

For my own knowledge; Am I right in saying the seals cause the pistons to retract after the fluid pressure is released? New seals should mean better retraction?

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hot66
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by hot66 »

Graham , do you want me to measure my pedal free travel ?
James

1973 911 2.4S
1993 964 C2
2010 987 Spyder

1963 Honda C100 Supercub

Its not how fast you go, but how you go fast ;)
911hillclimber
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

Yes please James. hank you for the offer.

I cannot find any info on what it is meant to be, nothing I've spotted on Google anyway.

I had a look at Jonathan's S brake travel on his hillclilb car and that was about 25mm, possibly less. His system is standard. (S callipers Fr/ M rear)

Mine is just too far to be comfortable.

There are 2 clearances/travel, first is the free play of the plunger rod off the pedal to the face of the master cylinder shuttle.
This should be 1mm.
Then there is the one I'm bothered about, the stroke of the shuttle to a hard pedal, ie pads on the discs. That is my 50mm travel.

At the moment the brake pedal foot pad is dead level with the accelerator pedal and I keep catching the accelerator pedal with the brake foot, another irritation!

Planning another round or two brake bleeds soon just in case there is some air in there, but the pedal does not sink or pump up.

In the meantime I will dig out my 1986 911 servo assembly, see what parts I'm missing (not many) and start thinking about adding it to the car over the smuggler's box replacing the large lid. (my car is LHD in that area).
When all done it will look like the factory unit/ installation.
A good little Xmas project.

Cost will be about £200 with a new master. The 3.2 engine has a vacuum take off as stock, currently blanked off.

The poor braking is taking too much away from enjoying the car, so something needs to be upgraded.
The traffic around me is all so quick and fast to brake, I feel concerned one day soon I will rear-end somebody.

I have no interest in keeping the 'authentic' period feel of the car, I just want to enjoy it, esp when I stop hillclimbing.

Neil:
The issue is the travel to press the brakes to biting position, too far and 2 x what it used to be before the new seals and pistons etc.
The pedal is quite hard at bit (maybe should be harder) and there is no fade etc, never had that problem ever, DOT 4 fluid as always.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
neilbardsley
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 8614
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:31 pm

Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by neilbardsley »

I've thought about adding a servo to my 914. If you do it I would be eager to come around and help. So I can understand the job. If you can wait for a weekend. I'm not sure my brake pumping skills are in par with Mrs Hill climber but ..

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hot66
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73T brake refresh...

Post by hot66 »

50mm ish travel from top until pads start to apply pressure… stock 73 m/c with 3.2 callipers and discs, stock pads oem

Always feels like lots of travel after driving the 964 which feels a lot more modern with mass pedal travel before braking in that respect, but in the 73 the brakes bite just when the brake pedal is inline with the throttle pedal so perfect for H&T
James

1973 911 2.4S
1993 964 C2
2010 987 Spyder

1963 Honda C100 Supercub

Its not how fast you go, but how you go fast ;)
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

That is the second best message I've just had in the last 5 mins!

Thank you James, so our cars are the same. Should have said I have the standard M/C too.

I did suspect the pedal being level to the accelerator pedal was 'deliberate' and that the same foot can tweak the throttle while braking readily for the heal-n-toe thing.

This is good.
I can now think the servo conversion through.
Been in the garage just measuring.
The assembly is rather long, how it will miss the heater plenum box will be the next worry. That's for tomorrow and a few more parts removed.

Neil, I will not be fitting the servo until the autumn. I have a few events in the diary for the 911 mixed in with the Lola hillclimbs so no time to do things but I can prepare a lot in advance and get a few parts together that I'm missing which might be a bit tricky to find.
I will keep in touch and do a thread too.

Thanks again James, real world stuff better than Google!
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
Nine One One
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by Nine One One »

Have you actually taken the master cylinder apart, as one of the two seals for each of the pistons may have failed? If the pedal travel is now too much, then the piston is moving forward in the chamber further than what it was before, which may have caused one of the lips to invert, picked up some crap, or just be worn, and as such is not making a proper seal?

This probably explains it better?

https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/tech-t ... ake-pedal/
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Re: 73T brake refresh...

Post by 911hillclimber »

The master I think is good.

This long travel has manifested after the rebuild and bleed of the callipers, nothing else has changed.

Yesterday when I pulled the pads out there was barely any clearance between piston/pad/disc yet the master shuttle travels a long way (hence pedal travel) before the lot all closes up tight.

The current master went in new in 1989, never been out of the car since. It is an ATE part from Autofarm.
The car has been fully bled 4 times in 37 years and flushed twice.
Miles on the car is about 60,000 since the master went in.

Pedal feel is not spongy and is solid, no sinking pedal when under pressure.
Last edited by 911hillclimber on Mon Jun 23, 2025 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
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