New MOT legislation and more...

[KS]

Here's quite a good overview...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/substant ... art-brown/

[gridgway]

Looks like a fundamental flaw in that article. It doesn't answer the question, what if my classic is modified?

It says don't have one. That's no answer!

So for clarity for me... If you end up having to say yes, what is the result? The need for an iva test and ending up with a q plate?

Graham

[KS]

No, not necessarily. The grey area right now is that to stay within the 8-points, the chassis/monocoque must remain unmodified. On a 911, the rear wings, according to DVLA, form part of the monocoque as it is welded to the inner wing, so cutting it to install RS or RSR arches will constitute modifying the monocoque. As the 8-point rule requires that 5 of those points come from an unmodified chassis/monocoque, then even if everything else was untouched, the car would still need to go through IVA. A hot-rod 911 that runs basically the stock suspension (they don't care about brake upgrades), steering, transmission and 'axles' (however that is defined on a 911) will have no problem with an upgraded engine, but it will need to pass BIVA test. Outside that, then the car will need to undergo full IVA and will lose its plate in favour of a 'Q'.

The matter of wide arches is not limited to Porsches, of course. The historic rally guys are concerned as every Escort with fat arches installed (for example) will be outside the 8-point ruling. Oh, and presumably all Singers will need to run Q-plates, too, as the bulkhead/slam panel is altered...

This is what the DVLA says:
Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:

it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)

Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

[911hillclimber]

I think I have read everything on this over the last 2 days.
As Keith initially said, there will be a guidance document in Nov 17 to 'help' us classic boys with modified cars.
In the mean time a modified classic does not neatly fall into the prescriptive classes already defined in the DVLA guides, we are not Kit Cars and I feel not rebuild cars.
We do not have a slot so everything is open to guessing for the VOSA inspectors.
Hence the easiest answer is not to have a modified classic, maybe they just want them scrapped.

Until the Nov guide comes out we are on tender hooks.

Worst case I think is a full IVA test or best a basic IVA test, either will be a pain as I read more on the subject.
Your 40 year old car will be assessed for radii and such things to 2017 standards. You should see the radius test for the gear lever.

I am very miffed off about this situation.
My modified 911 of nearly 28 years with 28 MoTs is suddenly dangerous and needs a professional assessment.
Considering these vehicles are of no interest to the Government for historical reasons, they sure are getting all the attention.

So, an original classic will be exempt from the MoT as it is greater than 40 years old, and a 3 year old Golf must have an MoT after 3 years.
Good logical thinking?

A modified classic must be MOTD which is sensible, all classics need inspection, must now be taxed and carry a Q plate to warn everyone the car is modified, taxed and tested.

Seeing as my insurance companies have never been bothered about the modifications, WHY is this Government so bothered?

They simply want the tax to be resumed and the £450 VOSA fees to be paid.

I can see the value of a classic with a Q being worth 50% of what it is today.

And there is nothing you can do about it.
Only 2200 or so people and industries complained to the Government in the public survey.

That said it all.

[KS]

I disagree about values – a modified classic with a Q-plate will come to be valued as a 100 per cent legal hot-rod. In the short term there will be snobbish disapproval, but long term attitudes will change. However, I can see people putting valuable personal numbers on retention until all this is sorted out otherwise if your car is deemed to require a Q-plate, then the current reg is lost forever.

A basic IVA test is likely to be nothing more than a paper exercise (to explain what has been done) – DVLA only says that an inspection 'may' be required. The sheer volume of cars affected will have some influence there, I think.

Don't blame this government – the whole process started long ago and is not driven by the UK government (no matter which party is in control). It all started with the EU and UN, the latter seeking universal vehicle legislation... Brexit might have 'helped' but the new regs will come into play before then and I can't see any government 'wasting' its time on such trifling matters as to whether a hot-rod has to run a Q-plate or not.

Incidentally, another matter to consider: the BIVA test is ONLY for amateur-built cars... Hmmm.

[911hillclimber]

This government is controlling this country, so has some at least responsibility to this being introduced.
If they can introduce it they can delay, or stop it as it is currently written.

Today, Q plate means a kit car, low quality and low value, cheap to build from scrap yard parts.
Miles away from a modified classic.
My car is Y registered, the year it was imported, never bothered me, but a Q is a different matter.

In that recent article, 3D say don't buy a modified car now, don't modify your chassis and be ready to sue any restorer who rebuilt the car etc.
All that will hit values, stock cars go up, mod cars go down.
Dealers with modified cars in stock are screwed, all those RS replicas with £60k price tags are now worth...?
A stock 73 911T with tax and MoT exemption will jump in value as it is a car with no risk.
Admittedly, my 73 911T with modified Q status could be safer as the mods improve the car IMHO and it is MOTD, so possibly safer.

I hope you are correct Keith.
I have zero faith any government doing anything to protect me on these trivial matter, just little men in little offices messing about with rules, no skills to do anything else?

This country has far bigger things to deal with as we all know.

The BIVA test routine looks ownerous to me, from fitting a fog light, compliant interior mirrors to how radiused your head light switch is, plus bigger things.

Lot of money to be made for VOSA who I have read have seen a marked reduction in work in recent years.
Is a classic worth it?
A nice standard MGB is!

[KS]

Like you say, less than 2200 replies to the consultation document were received. From the gov.org site:

Individuals 2141
Businesses 24
Trade bodies 6
Public bodies (including museums) 9
Other organisations/groups
(mainly motorists’ clubs) 37

That's a pretty p*ss poor response, notably from the trade. You can't adopt the 'it will never happen' attitude in this day and age, but that's precisely what people did...

[911hillclimber]

Indeed, this is proposed to be a multi billion £ business, but little response.

Most must drive stock Morris Minors so all is right with the world.
Wonder what will be the effect on the classic motorcycle world.

Are all the other EU countries also introducing this?

[KS]

Well, don't forget that we've had it very easy for years compared to other EU countries. We've not had to have stuff TüV tested, or resort to swapping stock engines back in place for an annual test... But if you look on some of the hot rod forums, you'll see that the clamp down is nothing new. More than one rod has had its V5 revoked in recent times. It's only that now it's being implemented across the board. I hope that it will not be applied in too Draconian a manner, but then I also hope that it will be a wake-up call for people who have buried their head in the sand. You'll remember the battle to get exemption from Type Approval back in the 1970s - that was a massive campaign championed by magazines that resulted in exemption for home-built or limited build cars. Today, even though far more information is available via the Internet, it seems fewer people were bothered to stand up for their perceived 'rights'.

As for classic bikes, it'll be the same deal but harder to police, I suspect.

[gridgway]

Ahh, the irony! Of course they aren't. But we are leaving as the document says, so we have to!

Are all the other EU countries also introducing this?

[gridgway]

Probably been covered already...how is the engine power check going to be done? I think a 2.0 engine on webbers is indistinguishable from a 2.3 high compression engine!
Graham

[C3s]

So Graham, will you be putting your impending 911 rebuild on hold & concentrating on the Terrot? Looking forward to seeing it finally run and probably speak for more on here

[gridgway]

Wrong Graham I believe!

[KS]

Probably been covered already...how is the engine power check going to be done? I think a 2.0 engine on webbers is indistinguishable from a 2.3 high compression engine!
Graham

If you've declared your modifications to the insurance company it will all be on the insurance database.

[gridgway]

That feels like a level of government computer system interoperability that I'm struggling with! Nothing's impossible, but that would need a codified way of the insurers recording the modification info into the ins database, then a protocol for the DVLA system to read it. Then SoPs to check. Nah, never going to happen.

In insuring my modded car, when I asked what bhp, I said I dunno, because I don't. Fair enough they said.

Graham