2.7 RS info wanted

904GTS · Post by **904GTS** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:08 am

Hi,

Does anybody have any information on 2.7 RS chassis number 0141, it may be coming my way in a somewhat complicated deal. I haven't seen it yet and would appreciate any info on its history, original spec etc., before I go and see it.

Lightweight_911 · Post by **Lightweight_911** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:41 am

Don't know any of its history but it is/was a Touring model originally delivered to West Germany.

Engine no. 6630120

Transmission no. 7830128

Original colour: Viper Green

Origin options: auxiliary heater/2-stage heated tinted rear window/sport seats/retractable antenna (left) & loudspeaker.

FLY 7 · Post by **FLY 7** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:46 am

Not much known about the car. Could have been owned by a chap called Wagner in Germany until quite recently.

Needs to be checked carefully as there are big differences in value between a 'good' one and a 'poor' one.

Really nice ones with no rust, in good original condition, with history are quite rare and very sought after. Whereas something with rust, non-original parts, poor condition, non-matching numbers, iffy history etc is of very questionable value, as restoration costs are now so prohibitive.

Let us know when you have more info.

904GTS · Post by **904GTS** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:56 pm

Thanks for the quick replies, much appreciated.

I didn't know they fitted Eberspachers to the RS, the owner must have planned a lot of winter motoring. Were the Sport Seats an option instead of the lightweight buckets or were standard seats the same as the 911S ?

From what I have been told the car is not rusty but needs a lot of tlc, the engine is not original either. it is still Viper Green.

I've seen a huge range of figures quoted for RS values recently, obviously as Fly7 says very much depending on condition etc. , having said that anyone like to venture an opinion on this car ? Assume it needs a repaint, is missing the sports seats and Eberspacher, has non original engine but is otherwise "sound"

FLY 7 · Post by **FLY 7** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:21 pm

The Recaro Sports Seats were an option in most countries, although most people specified them. The buckets were fitted in the RS lightweight.

A really good pair of 'correct' recaros are getting very expensive -c.£2500!

Difficult to advise on price without more info. Photos would help. The best lhd 'Tourings' can command c.£80k(ish), but an average one, needing expenditure, would be nearer £45k. Non-matching nos can knock c.£10k off the value.

Best to get a copy of the fabulous 'Carrera RS' book by Gruber & Konradsheim (T.A.G.Publishing in Austria)

www.tag-books.com

Viv_Surby · Post by **Viv_Surby** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:31 pm

FLY 7 - don't live in Shilton by any chance do you?

pmjt · Post by **pmjt** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:04 pm

904GTS wrote:I didn't know they fitted Eberspachers to the RS, the owner must have planned a lot of winter motoring.

The Carrera RS was ordered by specifying M471 or M472 option - most other options were available on the touring elec. windows, elec. sunroof, etc. and it's not that uncommon to see petrol heaters on German market cars - given that not many RS owners would leave their cars outside overnight in the winter months, there's not that much point in them now

There were many more restrictions on what could be ordered with a lightweight.

904GTS wrote:Were the Sport Seats an option instead of the lightweight buckets or were standard seats the same as the 911S ?

Option #409 was sports seats finished in vinyl with fabric inserts - 'comfort' seats were standard in the touring and buckets in the lightweights. The fabric centre of the seat is *generally* different on the RS's to same age 'S's - although later cars had the same centre fabric. Leather sports seats were a rare option.

904GTS wrote:From what I have been told the car is not rusty but needs a lot of tlc, the engine is not original either. it is still Viper Green.

Ahem, this is where the problems start..... tlc usually means missing parts / non original spec.

904GTS wrote:I've seen a huge range of figures quoted for RS values recently, obviously as Fly7 says very much depending on condition etc. , having said that anyone like to venture an opinion on this car ? Assume it needs a repaint, is missing the sports seats and Eberspacher, has non original engine but is otherwise "sound"

Ok, this is MY opinion - but I own two 2.7RS's so I tend to keep up with values. Secondly, this is based on the market staying where it is at the moment - if the economy get's wobbled again then prices could come down very rapidly.

In the UK and other RHD markets, a RHD 2.7RS will always command a premium. Two recent examples are the Sea Blau car sold to JKay by AutoFarm in the region of £85k and the white over blue car sold by Hairpin for in the region of £88k. Neither of these cars was particularly good condition (IMHO) and therefore a *top* complete RHD, first 500 car with perfect history and in perfect condition is probably £90-95k.

Now start to work backwards: a LHD in *top* condition is in the region of £75-80k - although some companies are asking silly money for ropey cars - I won't mention names but there is a red car with so many non-original pieces and they're asking nearly £79k for it.

So a matching numbers, perfect condition LHD car is between £75k and £80k - work backwards for the non-matching engine, probably to £65k.

If it needs paint, remove another £10k.

And then start to look at the costs of all the pieces that are non-original. If it has a steel framed duck tail - and many of the cars have had their original aluminium frame tail damaged over the years, it's around £3,000 to £4,000 to get one in good condition.

Door pockets, probably £1,500 for a perfect set; steering wheel if it's non-genuine - again £1,000 to find a good one.

Because the car is a first 500 car it should have lightweight roof, door and bonnet. If not, add some more money to replace those. Many cars had 'SC' doors fitted if damaged in an accident. To source a period door and fit a correct lightweight skin is iro £1,500 per side.

Sorry for babling - the point is: to value an RS, all the boxes have to be ticked: original panels, original tail, original and correct wheels, no accident damage that's been poorly repaired. If any of these is not there, knock money off the price.

To summarise (and then, I promise I'll stop ranting

) LHD, non-matching numbers, probably missing original parts, needing paint £40k to £50k depending on how much else is wrong with the car?

When finished, if all parts corrected, perfect paint £65 - £70k. This is assuming a perfect history - chassis number ties to comission number etc.

p

FLY 7 · Post by **FLY 7** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:42 pm

Viv_Surby wrote:FLY 7 - don't live in Shilton by any chance do you?

Viv, where's Shilton? I live near Tetbury.

pmjt - good answer.

The trouble with a non-matching nos RS is that there will always be a stigma attached to it. I know of an RSL that has a non-original engine ('74) and, despite the replacement having been rebuilt at vast cost by the Factory, it is still valued significantly lower than it would be with the correct matching nos.

And yes, I know the red RS you are referring to

210bhp · Post by **210bhp** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:47 pm

I think the info. Philip has given you is right on the money at this present time. I would add only one thing. I would say the value is also affected to a greater or lesser degree by the type of replacement engine. Is it a non matching number RS engine or something completely different?
Regards
Mike

904GTS · Post by **904GTS** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:59 pm

Many thanks for your comprehensive information and wise advice, as I suspected might be the case it's undoubtedly a bit of a minefield as far as these cars are concerned, compounded no doubt by a lot of self interest among the dealers and "experts".

For those who don't know me I have owned one of the three RS's the factory built for the 1973 East African Safari Rally since 1977, the bodyshell was extensively rebuilt by Autofarm back in 1989 and it's still waiting to be put back together. Despite this I must confess I have never really got into the finer points of the RS to the extent that some of you have ( not really relevant to my car ) hence my questions here.

Knowing how you all like pictures here's a picture of my car on the Safari I found at the NEC Autojumble a few years ago; it's also pictured in Brian Long's book "Porsche 911 The Definitive History 1971 to 1977" Page 116

Also some pictures taken at the PCGB Festival at Brands Hatch here

http://www.technic-motorsport.com/Brand ... index.html

Again my thanks

Barrie

Mick Cliff · Post by **Mick Cliff** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:19 pm

Could DDK Northerners have predicted Phil's answers? Oh Yes! Oh Yes!
If I ever need any info, Phil's the man. Nice one, mate.

pmjt · Post by **pmjt** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:55 pm

Mick Cliff wrote:Could DDK Northerners have predicted Phil's answers? Oh Yes! Oh Yes!
If I ever need any info, Phil's the man. Nice one, mate.

Bless you Mick - sadly there are too many gaps in my knowledge, but many thanks for your very kind words

Ever since I bought my 2.7RS I've become a bit of a bore on them

p

pmjt · Post by **pmjt** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:58 pm

904GTS wrote:

That's one whole lot of Porsche!! I sincerely hope I get the chance to see it in the flesh one day.

p

Gone in 60 seconds · Post by **Gone in 60 seconds** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:36 pm

Barrie
If only I knew when I was collecting the speedster I was standing so close to greatness!

Viv_Surby · Post by **Viv_Surby** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:59 am

Shilton is a small village near Burford - coincidence but I saw an RS there on Saturday