Back in beige

Ongoing and archived Porsche (and other marques) restoration threads from DDK members

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jamie
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Re: Back in beige

Post by jamie »

911hillclimber wrote:You have tried the fit with the bonnet struts in place?
Not yet. I'm going to flat it down first, then re-align it with the seal and lifters in place once it's painted. It needs to come off for paint anyway.

Whilst I'm at it, I think I may get the hinges powdercoated. I painted them with Dinitrol, but they don't look very sharp and have picked-up a lot of chips, ingrained with a layer of dust, whilst I've been spannering.
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Re: Back in beige

Post by squirejo »

Jamie, I find your thread strangely alluring. Not sure if its the pictures, the prose or the sheer triumph in the face of adversity. Either way, carry on.
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jamie
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Re: Back in beige

Post by jamie »

Thanks!

Not sure of the adversity - seems to be going OK at the moment. I think I am getting lucky.

Kind of.

This evening I fitted the driver-side door and front wing. The door went on OK - it's not as flat as the other side, but it settled into its happy place pretty quick giving me a 3mm gap at the rear and 3.5mm at the bottom. I understand that, when the cars were being built, Porsche used to tune the door gaps with a hammer, so I placed a block of wood over the hinges and gave each a quick smack with a mallet. And so the extra .5mm appeared at the rear edge.

The wing went on OK, but it wouldn't sit back far enough against the door, leaving a monster (4.5mm) gap. This was when I had the genius idea of using a ratchet strap to pull the wing back. I have a hundred ratchet straps in a box, where they all make ratched strap love and make more ratchet straps. I found one with big hooks at each end, threw one over the dash and the other into the headlight bucket. It pulled the wing back nicely.

Image

... but the hook at the front left a F****** great dent in the top of the wing. Not deep, but wide and obvious and definitely Not Clever.

I sanded the dent back to reveal the scale. This made it look terrible.

Image

A skim of filler and a rub with a block made it disappear from touch.

Image

To be honest, given the way I've been handling these panels, I'm lucky to have got this far with only this damage, so I don't feel too bad about this.

Meanwhile, I fitted a new starter cable inside the cabin. It's a bit early to be doing this, but the fuel tank needs to be out to allow access, and I want the fuel tank in when the car is being painted, just really to keep the dust out, and also because I'm super bored of moving it around my office where it has been always in the way of something for the last two years.

I noticed that if you cut the outer sheath off the old cable, it makes a good replacement for the plastic anti-chafe covers on the bend-over wire retaining tabs that are present throughout the car.

Image

This is how the car looked after fitting the panels.

Image

Here I tried sanding some guide coat to see how wobbly the panels were. The dark areas are raised, the white areas are low.

Image

I've photographed a lot of old 911s that appear to have 'pillowy' doors - where the reflection in the paint starts to roll in to the gap from several inches out. It looks horrible. I'd always assumed it was crap filler work, finished with a DA sander, but from this experiment it would appear that it would be the opposite - no filler. So all those lovely cars you see with laser-straight reflections running down the side are actually full of very skillfully-sanded filler.

It's one of the many awkward truths of car restoration - whilst the panels on a 50 year old car are knackered, the dies pressing the new panels are also probably 50 years old and also rather tired. You can hammer and dolly dents from the car forever, but you're never going to smooth out the podgy bulge of a replacement wing that has been formed in an ageing press.

I talk like an expert, but it's only what I've been told, and seen at car plants. They use many shite-tons of force to stamp a panel, and eventually, due to equal-and-opposite things, the die goes out of shape.

Continuing on this theme, Barry had mentioned to me in our phone conversation yesterday that he didn't think I was using enough filler on the roof. He was right - it looked good, but still felt wavy to touch. I decided I would bog the whole panel tonight, then cut it back with a very long flexible sanding block at some point when i had more energy. Those of a weak disposition should look away now...

Image

Well, the car was cheap for a reason.
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911hillclimber
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Re: Back in beige

Post by 911hillclimber »

My coupe roof has been 'fitted' with a flat glass tilt-n-popout aftermarket sun roof, sharp stuff in the 1980's distorting the whole roof.
I eventually fitted a modified MGB GT Webasto sunroof with a 2 x bigger hole but allowing the original curves of the roof to return.

Bodo on the roof is good, rather you than me sanding it down!

The wobbles in the panels you ably describe are very true, reason why the Americans bondo over the whole car and sand, sand, sand, sa...

To the wing fitment; have you fitted the real top wing seal in and bolted it all up tight yet?
The tail of the filler strip is very thin, the small diameter of the seal form only rests in the 'valley' between the wing and the windscreen base pressings, pinched lightly at best.

This might make all the difference to getting back to Barry's 4mm? The 3 small bolts that pull the wing tight in that region will have quite an effect too.
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sladey
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Re: Back in beige

Post by sladey »

Great work Jamie, keep it coming.

I'd mirror the comment about the wing-top seal and the bolts behind it - make sure you try it with the seal in place as it will change things

The big shock to me was you could put a panel on and it's so far out you think it's a disaster. But then a tweak here a push there a pull here and it sits beautifully

It's frustrating but rewarding work
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
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Darren65
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Re: Back in beige

Post by Darren65 »

jamie wrote: I've photographed a lot of old 911s that appear to have 'pillowy' doors - where the reflection in the paint starts to roll in to the gap from several inches out. It looks horrible. I'd always assumed it was crap filler work, finished with a DA sander, but from this experiment it would appear that it would be the opposite - no filler. So all those lovely cars you see with laser-straight reflections running down the side are actually full of very skillfully-sanded filler.
.....Jamie, I would say your first assumption is most likely the case 99% of the time.......crap filler work hiding grot!

We've now painted four of Barry's of shells and Richard who works on these is constantly telling me that the cars are perfect and you couldn't wish for a better canvas!.....he's highly experienced and he would know.

I would say be wary of thinking you have to use a lot of filler, that's not the case but you do have to work the whole car.....

....that said you're right to say it's worse to use too little filler....when we painted my first car I stressed that I wanted the bare minimum of filler used and we did the panel work off the shell. Taking measurements after shows there's no more than 0.5mm of filler at most which is nice to know although it could have been a tad sharper if we had worked the panels on the car and used a little more filler in places.

Ultimately you're still trying to use the bare amount of filler work possible and it should never be more than 1-1.5mm at the very most....

Image

....keep up the good work, you're doing great! :)

Cheers,
Last edited by Darren65 on Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary71
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Re: Back in beige

Post by Gary71 »

Even brand new panels from brand new presses are not always straight so don't feel too bad Jamie.

I'm sure you've noticed whilst photographing modern press & show cars (no matter what brand) that every one has perfectly flat panels and mirror finish paint with no orange peel? This doesn't happen on a normal production line. Apart from our cars of course :) But then that's not a normal production line.

Keep going I'm sure you'll end up with a great result, and of course the knowledge you put a lot of the work in yourself, which can't be underestimated.
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Re: Back in beige

Post by 911hillclimber »

Indeed, if you have the basic skills, the right attitude and gritty determination DIY is wonderful, and will be a success.

Getting the same result as some of the mega builds on here is a very real challenge esp if it is not your day time job! (let alone space and facilities).

Use them as a bench mark but not something to beat yourself up with.

Experience is a very key part to this (ref Darren's Richard) but you can get close to the mark and you certainly can get to meeting your own standards.
This is your first 911 shell as my 911 was, Darren's fab cars are Barry's 30th? iyswim.
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jamie
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Re: Back in beige

Post by jamie »

This is something that has been on my mind for the past few weeks I've been working on the car.

I don't really have time to do this. It's an extremely time-consuming task, which I never intended to get involved with. The shell was always going to go off to a painter.

The surface rust thing is what got me started - either way, I needed to take a day off work to hire a van and take the shell to be blasted, and another day to hire a van again and collect it. I figured I could blast and prime the thing in two days, and save the cost of the blasting and van hire, so that's what I did.

Then I decided to underseal the thing, and then I got a call from my painter to say that he had to move premises as his landlord had sold the site. It would be June before he could get started on it, but having done the blasting and priming, I thought, well, I couldn't stop now. So through this chain of events, and my own enthusiasm to get on with it, I now have quite a serious task on my hands. And 90 percent of the time I'm in that garage, I'm thinking about all the work that's sitting on my desk inside.

The truth is, it would be more productive, and would make a lot more financial sense, to punt the work out and get on with my own job. I'm not trying to sound like billy big-bollocks - it's just that this bodywork stuff eats time (especially since I've never done it before), and I can do my own job better and quicker.

So with that in mind, I wouldn't feel at all bad stopping now and passing it on to a professional. But I'll give myself a bit longer because at the moment I'm quite enjoying the journey.
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911hillclimber
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Re: Back in beige

Post by 911hillclimber »

A paint shop would do the process far quicker and most will strive for perfection in surface, not just shine.

Find a local shop and book it in, there are 100's of them. The Names will be full, but you will find a good 3 man band somewhere who will love doing it.
Spend a day looking at them and see who you feel understands your need and budget. Local is good so you can keep a check on things.

Alternative is to find a local paint supplier for car paints and ask them for suitable painters in the region who paint cars not just bumped run-arounds.

I'm sure there are many on here who can point you to a painter with the right qualities.
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Re: Back in beige

Post by sladey »

Are you on a timescale Jamie?

If you're enjoying it, keep doing it. If it's stopping you earning, have a break. If you're not enjoying it, farm it out. Whilst saving a bit of cash if useful, it's not the real reason you've dived in, is it?

Once it's done, you may miss this bit, so don't miss out on enjoyment. If you are enjoying it.
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
jamie
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Re: Back in beige

Post by jamie »

Not really on a timescale, but I'd like to get it done. I'm a bit bored with owning just a van and a motorbike now. I like cars. The van is too big, new and expensive to lob around like I enjoy. The motorbike is OK, but I'm not great in the cold.

I'm enjoying the process itself, but the time I'm spending doing it does play on my mind. There's a difference between enjoying it and looking after my business. Doing this work on the car requires loads of hours and 100% immersion. You get so filthy and involved that you can't just skip in an out of the garage to reply to emails and answer phone calls and all that.

I do want to do it, so at least I've completed one stage of the build myself. Once this bit is done, I just need someone to paint it, then the reassembly can be done bit-by-bit over time, which will be a much better situation.

I'm aiming for September (did I just say that?).
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911hillclimber
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Re: Back in beige

Post by 911hillclimber »

I would not go further now.
Make your mind up because no pro painter will take your self primered car and add work paint and your money and risk that you have buried a contaminant under your work and the paint reacts.

He wont want the come back as he can't prove it was you!

If you DIY primer etc then you are committed to paint and all that entails.
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Darren65
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Re: Back in beige

Post by Darren65 »

jamie wrote: I do want to do it.......
If you can, I think you should see the paintwork through to completion......

....you clearly have a lot of ability and the sense of achievement and satisfaction this would give you would be incalculable! 8)


Shout if there's anything we can help with and you're welcome to call in anytime and practice your technique on a couple of vans! :wink:

Cheers,
jamie
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Re: Back in beige

Post by jamie »

Darren65 wrote:
jamie wrote: I do want to do it.......
If you can, I think you should see the paintwork through to completion......

....you clearly have a lot of ability and the sense of achievement and satisfaction this would give you would be incalculable! 8)


Shout if there's anything we can help with and you're welcome to call in anytime and practice your technique on a couple of vans! :wink:

Cheers,
Ha! Thank you Darren. Can I paint a van with a Tipp-Ex brush?

Seriously though - the paint thing might be a bit much. I'd give it a go, if I was in for a single-stage solid colour (that I could sand the runs out of), but putting a matte lacquer over a chrome whateverthehell might be a bit intense for a first-timer. Plus, I'm not sure I'd be able to create the dust-free environment I'd need to do a nice job anyway.
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