Please educate me on FIA Historic racing / Appendix K

[IanM]

Although I've never been to watch an FIA Historic racing event but it seems to me that most 911 cars with FIA papers are pre-66 (Solex carburretors) by the looks of forums and classifieds. Is that right?

I have recently been reading some FIA information (I have cut & pasted some relevant stuff here, see below dotted line) but I still don't fully understand it. Can anybody just buy any car of the correct model & year, prepare it in accordance to technical regulations and apply for FIA homologation? Just like that? For any class?

What does the list of period classifications exactly mean? Does it mean the cars of, say, Period F race separately from Period G? (different race, difference class?)

Don't people race SWB 911's with Weber carbs in Period G1 and if so, why not? Is it because they don't want to race against the LWB cars of 2.2 litres?

Which is the best type of 911 for Period G1 and G2 respectively?

Thanks in advance


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Hom. Grp Make Model x Cyl. Hom. Date ASN Ext Observations
183 GT Porsche 911 1991 16.11.1964 D 3
1451 2 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 2
503 3 Porsche 911 1991 01.01.1966 D 1
3060 3 Porsche 911 2687 01.02.1974 D
609 3 Porsche 911 E 1991 01.01.1969 D 2
3011 3 Porsche 911 E/T (2195 & 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 4 Cylinder capa.
579 3 Porsche 911 L Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
547 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.11.1966 D 6
608 3 Porsche 911 S 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
3005 3 Porsche 911 S 2195 01.01.1970 D 0
3061 3 Porsche 911 S 2687 01.02.1974 D 3
3025 3 Porsche 911 S ( 2195 et 2341) 2195 01.04.1970 D 8
578 3 Porsche 911 S Targa 1991 01.01.1968 D 1
3062 3 Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 10
3062 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.02.1974 D 3 Tr
207 B Porsche 911 SC 2687 01.03.1982 D 11 ON 3062
577 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1968 D 4
607 3 Porsche 911 T 1991 01.01.1969 D 3
226 4 Porsche Carrera 6 1991 01.05.1966 D 0
637 4 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.01.1973 D 5
3053 3 Porsche Carrera RS 2687 01.07.1973 D 18


3. DATE CLASSIFICATIONS AND DEFINITIONS
3.1 A car will be dated by the specification of that car and not necessarily by the date of build.
3.2 Dating periods are as follows:
A) Before 1/1/1905.
B) 1/1/1905 to 31/12/1918.
C) 1/1/1919 to 31/12/1930.
D) 1/1/1931 to 31/12/1946.
E) 1/1/1947 to 31/12/1961 (to 31/12/1960 for single-seat and two-seat racing cars).
F) 1/1/1962 to 31/12/1965 (from 1/1/1961 for single-seat and two-seat racing cars and up to 31/12/1966 for Formula 2), excluding Formula 3 and single engine-make Formulae.
GR) 1/1/1966 to 31/12/1971 for Single-seat and two-seat Racing cars (1/1/1964 to 31/12/1970 for Formula 3).
G1) 1/1/1966 to 31/12/1969 for homologated Touring and GT.
G2) 1/1/1970 to 31/12/1971 for homologated Touring and GT cars.
HR) 1/1/1972 to 31/12/1976 for Single-seat and two-seat Racing cars (1/1/1971 to 31/12/1976 for Formula 3).
H1) 1/1/1972 to 31/12/1975 for homologated Touring and GT cars.

901/911
- The 901/911 short wheelbase model introduced in 1963 is eligible as a GTS in Period F, to the specifications of the FIA homologation form n° 183 of 1965 only. (i.e. excluding subsequent extensions). Form n° 503 (Weber carburettors) is only valid for Period G.
- Cars of Period F may use the camber adjustment facility featured on the front suspension top mounts, introduced on chassis n° 302695.
- The use of the parts listed below is permitted (GTS, Period F, homologation form n° 183):
- Fuchs 51⁄2 inches alloy wheel.
- Löbro half shafts.
- The 901/20 type engine, and the corresponding rocker arms, may be used only in post-1966 911R.
- 911 Carreras model G of the year 1974 and beyond may use 7 inches wheels at the front and 8 inches wheels at the rear, as supplied by the make concessionaire.
- 915 gearboxes are not allowed on 911 cars before 1972.
- 911 2.7 / 3.0 RS or RSR from 1974 onwards: the crankcases can be replaced by those for the 930 Turbo 3.0 (cast numbers: 930 101 101 4R & 930 101 102 4R, or 930 101 103 4R & 930 101 104 4R), provided the cylinder capacity remains original.

[one-two]

Ian, you're right - a lot of FIA-based historic sports car racing is pre-66 and, for 911s, that means 2 litre cars on Solex carbs. There is no particular reason why it has to be like that, but it is. It's also fair to say that any car prepared to the right spec is eligible for pre-66 papers, including 66 and post-66 cars. Race organisers may choose to prioritise genuine pre-66 cars, but that's their call and, in my experience, it's less of an issue than some would have you believe. The dominance of pre-66 racing means that period G cars have fewer racing opportunities. A 69S is a very competitive car in an under 2-litre class if you can find one. As an illustration of how things might change, there is a race for all FIA 911s from 1964 to 1974 at next year's Spa Classic meeting. I hope that's helpful - tell what you want to race and we'll point you in the right direction! Best wishes, Robert

[IanM]

The dominance of pre-66 racing means that period G cars have fewer racing opportunities. A 69S is a very competitive car in an under 2-litre class if you can find one.

Would 69S be in the period G? What are the technical regulations for the 69S? Is early 2.0 sand-cast crankcase allowed in this model? Are 906 barrels & pistons permitted (81mm, 10.5:1 C/R)?

Aren't there any racing opportunities for period G cars in the UK?

[one-two]

The tech regs are in the relevant homologation papers. A 69S should run a mag case engine and, ideally, 2 litre pistons and cylinders. A number of 2 litre competition cars run 81mm pistons and cylinders because of availability and cost - it's not quite right, but, in the scheme of things, it's not necessarily that big a deal either. There are more material things to worry about if you wish to do so. The compression ratio is more or less free. There aren't many FIA races for period G in the UK - there are more in Germany and France, where the pre-66 thing is a little less overwhelming. Best wishes, Robert

[redrobin911]

As Robert has mentioned the focus for early 911 racing seems to be in the pre '66 class of which you must have a 911 built in '65 (or some MY66 cars with build dates in '65) to firstly gain FIA homologation. There doesn't seem to be many opportunities to race 67-69 cars at UK circuits with the possible exception of the Porsche Club Championship in Class 3, but then again you would be mostly racing against 911sc's and the like. It should also be noted that the PCGB dropped its own class 4 (for FIA pre 66 cars) because of the abundance of other race series in the UK where these cars are eligible.
Needless to say the cars built in the early 70's namely RS, RSR & ST etc. have many opportunities to race and many go down this route and prepare early cars to FIA homologation. Any SWB car from the late 60's early 70's could be converted to LWB and prepared to the specifications for RS etc, however the value of SWB cars is increasing and it would seem to make more sense to build 70's FIA car on a 70's shell.

I'm building a '65 FIA car and have read appendix K and cars must conform to the correct regulations to get FIA approval - yes this means Solex carbs, aluminium cased engines, 901 box etc. It would be nearly impossible to have a 69 car, built to 65 spec to gain the technical papers required to race - the VIN number itself must be proved to be from a 65 car. In addition to Appendix K so you must read FIA appendix J for the period 1965 to see what's allowed and what is not. Appendix J is another minefield and just as it is for today's technical regulations a lot of it is open to interpretation. Another important point Robert makes is that many of the cars are simply not checked for eligibility, so 66 and later cars may well be allowed to race at club level but maybe not so at major events such as the Spa 6 hours etc. so if your serious and planning to spend money on buying/building your race car to my mind it needs to be right and have FIA papers.

Don't let all of this put you off racing a 911, best advice is to decide what type of 911 racing you want to do - ask others on this forum? The PCGB club championship is very good and certainly worth considering and you could race a 2.4 or 2.7 pre impact bumper car (as you could a 3.0l SC or 3.2 Carrera) cost to buy/build a car would be considerably less expensive than a 65 911. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[one-two]

Let's get one thing straight please - you do not need a car with a pre-66 chassis number to get pre-66 papers! In fact, there is no mention of the chassis number anywhere on the papers. What you need is a car that is prepared to pre-66 spec as set out in the papers. It is a different matter as to whether certain race organisers prefer earlier cars. I think it can be a consideration for some, but it's just one among many. For others it doesn't matter a jot.

[redrobin911]

Let's get one thing straight please - you do not need a car with a pre-66 chassis number to get pre-66 papers! In fact, there is no mention of the chassis number anywhere on the papers. What you need is a car that is prepared to pre-66 spec as set out in the papers. It is a different matter as to whether certain race organisers prefer earlier cars. I think it can be a consideration for some, but it's just one among many. For others it doesn't matter a jot.

On the homolgation 183 it states chassis numbers from 300 001 usf (and so forth) so it is on the papers - but i can't comment on whether or not you will get an HTP for a car with chassis numbers from a 66 or newer car? The difference as I see it is that if it's a 66 or newer car you have to prove the chassis is built to the pre 66 spec, however if the car is 65 then you don't?? I do agree most race organisers aren't too concerned.

[one-two]

Each car is inspected and issued with its own papers - the HTP - to establish its compliance with the model's homologation papers. It's at that point - the inspection - that the spec is checked. For those that haven't been through the process, here are some papers from - you've guessed it - a 66 car prepared to pre-66 spec! Contrary to my earlier comments, the chassis number is noted on this set as is the 66 build date and the 65 spec. It must have been an earlier iteration that excluded the chassis number. If you go way back in time, there was a chassis number cut-off for period pre-66 911s at 305100 - which is the end of 66! Even then, of course, they still had to be presented to pre-66 spec. Best wishes, Robert

[IanMcLeod]

...There doesn't seem to be many opportunities to race 67-69 cars at UK circuits with the possible exception of the Porsche Club Championship in Class 3, but then again you would be mostly racing against 911sc's and the like. ...

Not great opportunities you are right. PCGB Class 3 is a great place to learn but after a year or two you will want to be racing in Class 1 otherwise it gets a bit boring. Class 1 is 964, 993 and now 996 I believe. Once you are into these cars then there are other series such as the CSCC Modern Classics which is proving popular.

A 69 S as has been talked about is a great car to race in if you can find the races for it in this country.

Ian.

[PhilipB]

911s up to Dec 69 are allowed in HSCC's Historic Roadsports and CSCC's Swinging Sixties. Both events visit many of the classic UK circuits. HSCC are single driver 20 minute races while CSCC are 40 minute 1 or 2 driver. Both clubs are very friendly and a great place to start.

[one-two]

Quite right, though those series are run to their own rules rather than FIA regs. I've noticed that the HSCC's 70's Roadsports series is now more fully open to 2.2s and 2.4s as well as some 2.7s and SCs. Check with the club if it is something that might be of interest.