DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

I have for a long time used Esso premium as it was ethanol free.
However I gather that is no longer the case.
The last discussion I could find was from 2021 when Esso was still available.
Is there any consensus on what we should do to if anything to reduce the risk.

Actually Esso state 'Supreme 99' E5 is free of Ethanol but not in certain parts of the country like Devon Cornwall and parts of Scotland and NE England . But they seem to cover themselves that as they put E5 on the pumps and can put up to 5% Ethanol in their fuel if required. This info and its dated 2024 can be seen if you google and study the links shown.
I have been buying Supreme since I first saw those comments a long time ago.

No way can I check that confirmation so have my doubts a bit about that. In any case their cheaper fuels are all E5

Roy

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I still use Esso Synergy Supreme 99 in each of my 'old' cars - although, lately, I have noticed that some local(ish) Esso petrol stations have stopped stocking it (due to lack of demand/expense ?).

However, Esso do state on their website:

"We currently supply an ethanol-free Synergy Supreme * 99 unleaded in some parts of the UK.
From September 2023 our Synergy Supreme * 99 will transition to contain up to a maximum of 5% ethanol at all Esso pumps irrespective of which part of the country they are located. The labelling at our pumps will remain as E5 for Synergy Supreme * 99 unleaded".

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Same here as Andy's experience, but:

The local ESSO stations to me are cramped and awkward, so i do not use them for that reason alone. Also busy most of the time and a squeeze between the pumps if a Range Rover or similar is parked in the same bay. I'm not sure a Range Rover etc driver will be aware of the 911 and open the door on the car.

The local SHELL stations (I have a choice of 2) are about 5 and 7 miles away which is a good run to warm the 911 and get to running heat on the Boxster.
The stations are both 2 to 3 years old and very wide.
Prices are sort of the same, but the difference is not much.

I always use Shell 99 octane E5 in the 911 and so some ethanol has been through the car over the years. The use of Shell E10 shows a bit of roughness, but the car is so rough anyway, not really noticeable, but I don't like the thought of 10% (mas) ethanol in there, sometimes resting in the car for over a month.

The Boxster is ok on E10, the ECU is adaptive, and I've used E10 in it for 3 years, maybe longer. Porsche approve E10 in my 987.2.
This means i can get a tank fill almost anywhere in the UK and Europe.

I sometimes put E5 in the Boxster, but cannot notice any difference, sill revs well, pulls great, tick over unchanged and, dare I say it, no change in fuel consumption, so use E10, but not Supermarket fuel (my predudice)

In the winter 6 months, ( October to March) the 911 is in a garage and sits there with little or some fuel, never full, (E5) and on start-up to service it for the year ahead in late March it simply starts up with a belch of blue smoke of course.
This has been the case for about 30 years now.

If you want total peace of mind use ESSO E5 or Shell E5 as they are possibly the best you can use at a reasonable price?

I always use Millers VSPe to mitigate the effects of ethanol, regardless of whether e5 or e10 has been used

Ian Comerford wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 4:39 pm I always use Millers VSPe to mitigate the effects of ethanol, regardless of whether e5 or e10 has been used

Ditto
However -E5 no longer available in ROI - for over a year now.
Still can get 99 E5 in Ulster though- and 20 jerricans fit neatly into the back of a Range Rover.
Although most classic car here folk seem to think that an additive is all that is required i believe they will eventually find otherwise.
I'm sure there is a business opportunity here somewhere.
C

That additive reads as a fix everything fluid, but not sure if anyone will ever know if it is or is not, bit like oil quality.

The comments quoted are a little 'this is the best additive' I've used but not sure how you would know this to be a fact.
Millers is a reputable manufacturer mind, so I'm sure there is a lot of truth in the claims, and backed by the Federation of historic vehicles so a good endorsement imho.

Not sure how cars with cat converters would fare over time if used in such a car design.

Can a chemical that removes ethanol exist that you add at the petrol station, works on the incoming fuel so the ethanol is removed before you drive off and pass through an engine efficiently?
Sounds unlikely to me, but removing ethanol has to be very convenient surely?

I think the days of fuels free of ethanol are gone in general, so what can a reliable solution be?

I must admit I use E10 in both my cars. Don't notice much difference in running

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neilbardsley wrote:I must admit I use E10 in both my cars. Don't notice much difference in running

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It’s not really about how the cars run, more to do with how ethanol effects the rubber components within the fuel system , not just the hoses which are easilly upgraded, but the rubber within fuel pumps etc

I use vpower in all my Porsches

Agree with James, the reaction of old pumps etc to ethanol content is the real issue and it takes a few years i suspect to 'bite' into things.

Having said that, my Lola race car on carbs has only used Shell V Power E5 for 14 years and i have changed the rubber hoses from the pump to the cars twice because they had become very hard/inflexible.
Last change was 4 years ago using ethanol resistant pipe (previously Halfords carb pipe) and that seems to be doing well, still supple.

The Facet pump is fine and 14 years old. Old aeroquip braided fuel 'tank to pump' pipe all good after far more than 14 years.

I guess a 911T 1973 fuel pump may be very susceptible to failure, let alone the mech injection pump seals?

E5 is the only real answer but ethanol is probably present so degeneration is going to take place, or components are already damaged to some degree.

Are the expensive sustainable fuels available ethanol free?

911hillclimber wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 8:58 am

Are the expensive sustainable fuels available ethanol free?

https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/main ... -refinery/
Porsche's e-fuel is derived from air and water; it's not a biofuel like ethanol or rapeseed oil. The difference is that what the engine sees is pretty much the same as it would were the tank fillled with conventional petroleum. The e-fuel is a synthetic hydrocarbon, not alcohol like ethanol (the same as in drinks).

So I suppose the answer is yes they are Ethanol free?

It’s the same process which Paddy Lowe’s Zero operation at Bicester Heritage are pursuing: https://www.zero.co/

Interesting.
I am noticing more hillclimb cars running it now.

Not sure if that is for performance for 30 seconds or taking a green direction.

People spend far more time burning ordinary fuels just getting to the hill venues, but every little helps.

I use around 2 gallons for a weekend hillclilb, about 4 miles on track and 10 mins warming up before each run on tick over.

matteo68 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 10:47 am It’s the same process which Paddy Lowe’s Zero operation at Bicester Heritage are pursuing: https://www.zero.co/

If a mass market could develop - a far better long term solution for the planet than the electric shite IMO.
Simple delivery via existing infrastructure.
Oh, of course then people would continue to drive old cars - even less carbon issues- but not politically expedient!!
C

Sounds great to me and no issues with lack of capacity in the grid, upstream carbon emissions, mineral depletion in Africa or heaven forbid, range anxiety!! (I know: I had an I-Pace with 160 mile range in the winter and no off-street parking for 18 months before I couldn’t stand it any longer…)

Ultimately I guess there’s going to be a range of different options available including hydrogen which isn’t so different to methods of electricity generation