DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Sort of not seen this coming. Is E10 significantly worse for cars than E5? Do I need to run my new to me 2.4S spec MFI engine on V-power or similar?

Yeah, the E10 conversation is the same over here, I read about various additives that supposedly combat the effects, especially for longer term storage, winter etc.....Fortunately, I found a Petrol station nearby that sells Ethanol free, pricier but comparable to UK for a fill up.

Be interesting to hear other thoughts.

I use the Morris's additive

Even talked about at the hill climb last weekend.

Long term storage a real issue.
One said to add water to the petrol in a simple tank, measured, and the water takes in the ethanol.
Drain the lower level of the mix off and you are left with 'pure' petrol.

Even having read about it, I can't quite work out what the long term storage issue is. And if 10% ethanol causes it (whatever "it" is), surely 5% also causes it?

One conversation went:

At 10% the ethanol takes in water and then super saturates and neat water is settled out at the bottom of the fluids in the tank over a (say) winter period.
This neat water rusts whatever steel it is in contact with, ie the bottom/seams of the tank depending on the water depth.

I was only 1/2 listening, more concerned with my gear linkage!

I am a member of the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs and they have a rapore with the government of many things inc Fuels.
They have just appointed a consultant on the subject who has just retired from his life long job in Fuels, Nigel Elliott.

Nigel is a long time hill climber in his twin turbo V8 TR7 and writes BSi papers on the subject.

His papers on this subject are starting to come out now via the Federation.

Facts:

https://fbhvc.co.uk/uploads/files/e10-r ... 0Final.pdf

Thanks Graham. The linked document (consultation response) doesn't add any info about whether or how bad E10 is. It essentially makes the point that as E10 is coming, the availablity of E5 for classics is important.

If as described, the phase separation occurs, that must be a problem for all petrol cars. Admittedly plastic tanks won't rust, but modern engines don't run well on water. Mmm interesting.

Agree.
I think there is no definitive conclusion as yet to the effects.
Also, classics v daily v lawn mowers etc all will have different issues with the stuff, maybe not yet fully understood.

definitely feels like going with the flow and using "super" E5 from now on!

Well, when I say "from now on" I mean probably starting in the spring as my car is unlikely to have the engine transplant finished before the winter! That'll be an entire year without it

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There's some useful info here:

https://www.heritagecarinsurance.co.uk/ ... ssic-cars/


The main disadvantage/inconvenience I've found (E5 petrol) is that modern fuel containing ethanol seems to go 'off'/stale much quicker than non-ethanol petrol - & seems to affect 'old'/classic cars in particular.

I try to use non-ethanol petrol whenever I can (Esso Synergy Supreme which is 99 octane) but on the rare occasions I have to use E5 fuel it definitely affects some of my cars.

The most affected seems to be my Climax-engined Seven which, if not used for a few weeks, won't start without a couple of squirts of Easy Start, after which it'll start easily. It could be that the SU carbs are more sensitive to fuel composition than Webers, etc but I'm reluctant to change anything as the general running/performance is perfect otherwise.

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Ethanol free is available for lawn mowers and other 4 stroke garden machinery.

I stock this stuff:

https://www.stihl.co.uk/STIHL-Products/ ... 4Plus.aspx

Would work out quite expensive to fill up with though....

I think Sheffield University researched ethanol and fuel vaporisation, the bought loads of petrol and found that ethanol varied all over the place and up to 20% already, but that one make of premium fuel had none.

They were most concerned about vaporisation and found 5% heating oil was the fix in an MG XPAG engine.

You can also find research into engine wear using it and that it makes no difference, though methanol does increase wear.

Google to verify my unreliable memory

Ashley James wrote:I think Sheffield University researched ethanol and fuel vaporisation, the bought loads of petrol and found that ethanol varied all over the place and up to 20% already, but that one make of premium fuel had none.

They were most concerned about vaporisation and found 5% heating oil was the fix in an MG XPAG engine.

You can also find research into engine wear using it and that it makes no difference, though methanol does increase wear.

Google to verify my unreliable memory

Think this is Esso Supreme 99 or something like that - there are a couple of UK areas where that fuel has ethanol but that's detailed on the Esso website. Outside those specific areas my understanding is that it carries the E5 marker because it may contain trace amounts from being transported in tanks used for other blends.

As you say Google and supplier websites are the go to for up to date info.

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As I said above, whenever possible, I use Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 which in most areas is ethanol-free:



https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels/petrol

For so many years I've used Shell V Power in my 911.3.2 stock engine. 99 reliable octane (I'm told by one who really knows).
Put 95 octane in it, also Shell and you really notice the drop in most characteristics (mind just kidding me?).

My 2009 Boxster will run on 95 or 99 from anywhere with barely any noticeable difference.
Similarly, my '72 Honda Twin is a beauty on 99 but really horrid on 95, so is it all simply down to age and the technology?

I think so.

So, the old stuff really needs the very best and low/no ethanol, which is not easy to find.

The Stilhl fuel is rocket liquid! Lawnmowers love it. Did nothing for my French 1949 motorcycle, but nothing did...

Seems like you need to drain the tanks now over winter?