Brake Recommendations

[DarthMJH]

I've never been that confident with brakes on my 1973 911 T, especially at speed, it takes quite sometime to stop the car. I know they are not servo assisted like modern cars, but they just don't feel right.

The car has standard M callipers, but I am not sure on the pads as I have never changed them since owning the car. The brakes shouldn't be worn as it would have been picked up on the MOT.

Looking at the Rennsport page http://rennsportsystems.com/brakes/brake-upgrades-two/ it mentions a few Pagid pads and I thought this one possibly was suitable.

"Grey (RS-15) High friction compound with high ceramic content. It combines a 20% higher friction value than RS-14 with slightly increased pad wear. These are good on cars without power-assisted brakes when lighter pedal efforts is required. Fade resistant to 1300F (700C)."

These are for sale at Design 911 - PAGID RS-15 Grey Brake Pads £116.05

or I could just buy new standard pads. Eurocar Parts sell Pagid £43:49, Textar £44:99 or ATS £55:99 I haven't got a clue what would be better.

Design 911 also sell upgraded Brake discs either SPORTS CROSS DRILLED or SPORTS SLOTTED brake discs, again I don't know which would be better.

I don't want to buy new standard pads if it makes no difference to what I have already.

Has anyone tried any of the above or have any recommendations.

Many thanks

[911hillclimber]

I feel like I'm stalking you!

My 73T felt just the same as yours.
After several options on pads (stock, sintered, Ferrodo and Pagid) ended up with Carbone
Metalic drilled vented discs all round.
It now stops.
The pads groan a bit when working hard, and can squeal a little at very slow speed light use, but it stops.

I fitted A type front callipers, stock M rear a very long time ago giving a larger front pad area.

They are not cheap, around £200 per axle and I changed the pads and discs at the same time so perfect friction surfaces. not sure I would bother with the discs, stock one are good enough I think.

All this was 3 years ago and 4K miles

[squirejo]

Mike you might find the pads and discs are glazed. if there is somewhere quiet you can do a few high speed stops, thjs might improve matters as the heat and friction deglazes them. It's a little like bedding in new discs and pads- have a google or look on the pagid site. Might be worth a try before throwing money at the problem. Also, remember the obvious fact that brake fluid should be changed every 2 yrs.

[DarthMJH]

Thanks all for the advice. I wouldn't like groaning or squeaky brakes, that would get on my nerves.

I don't think the pads and discs are glazed, as I have taken the car on a track day and used the brakes hard.

I didn't know about changing the brake fluid every 2 years. However I believe it was changed recently when I had the suspension done.

[fetuhoe]

Both brake fluid and pad will change pedal feel to a greater or lesser extent but this may be a different issue to being able to stop the car.

If nothing unusual has flagged up during the MOT and you are confident that the system works correctly and that the master cylinder size hasn't been changed (Many US sites used to suggest a 23mm dia cylinder which I don't think is a great idea)

Some of the higher boiling point brake fluids have quite low levels of lubricity and can have a negative influence on pedal feel and effort.

The old ATE Super Blue (now unavailable and replaced) was average in this respect. Not great but not bad.

I have always found Castrol SRF quite poor and tend to use R600+ from Anglo American Oils.

I like Pagid RS4-2 'Blue' pads and have used them in Historic Rally Cars for years.

They work instantly from cold and give a very consistent pedal and have sufficient heat capacity even for long stages of 20+ miles.

Porterfield 4RS are also good and give good feel and stopping capability but are more difficult to find.

The standard pads are just that with the Textar probably being the best choice. Pagid and ATE are decent standard pads but will fade when used hard.

[DarthMJH]

Thanks I will check the brake cylinder on the car. You never know it may have been changed for the larger size. I will also find out what brake fluid was added. I believe it is Porsche brake fluid. I will look into blue pads.

[hot66]

With a good shove, can you lock the front wheels ?

Compared to any modern car they do feel poor to,start with, but don't confuse lack of initial over servo'd bite with lack of braking. My S needs a relative good amount of effort on the brake pedal ( I have 3.2 calliper s and discs up front) ..... When jumping from my 964 into my S I suddenly wonder where my brakes have gone . Saying that , After a few miles I've got used to them again and the brakes are better than you think , nice and progressive but still enough bite when needed.

Maybe worth getting another early car owner to drive your car and see what they think before starting on the slippery slope of upgrades.

[smallspeed]

Another vote for Carbone Lorraine pads here, although non-porsche
Also, the pagid pads from for £45 are not the same as the ones for 110+ from design 911, they will be standard compound..

[911hillclimber]

The Carbone pads are a little noisy, or at lest mine are, but they really work without having to push really hard.
With the use of the car now it is light braking from moderate speeds in traffic that I need in the busy West Midlands greater area, and the French pads seem to give a good performance for not a lot of effort.
Modern cars are just that, and can make you feel that the early 911 should have something close to retardation to effort as your new car.
Never will be so. Adding a servo has crossed my mind as per the Sc and 3.2 but a fair bit involved.

It is a good idea to find a good dry straight clear road and emergency stop from 60 mph if safe to do so and see if the fronts lock up. If not then maybe time for a full refresh of the system?

I don't feel old fluid would stop brake performance as the test above, a from cold hard stop.

Keith S fitted big callipers front and rear and a few other mods on a fresh system and seems happy, but in his reports he never points to the brakes as being fantastic, so they must be of little concern to his driving?

[210bhp]

Have you looked at Nick Moss's site, early 911?
He has a whole section on brakes. Might be worth having a chat with him.

Regards
Mike

[abzadams]

Just after I bought my car I let Bob Watson overhaul the brakes as it had a leaky M/C. I bought new front calipers, and refurbed the original rears, changed the fluid and changed the pads to what Bob called "his specials". The car was transformed and brakes steady and excellently for an old car. When Mike B (210bhp), stole my car in CLM in 2010 he commented on how good the brakes are (after his 4 hour drive)!

It may be a combination of things that when the recipe is right you will know. Start with the simple options and take it from there.

[Nick Moss]

I would overhaul your standard brakes, get the calipers rebuilt by Classiccar Automotive, fit new Textar (standard) pads and new fluid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the standard set up!

[210bhp]

The car was transformed and breaks steady and excellently for an old car. When Mike B (210bhp), stole my car in CLM in 2010 he commented on how good the brakes are (after his 4 hour drive)!

I was held up in traffic just outside Paris


Regards
Mike

[fetuhoe]

Nick,

If there is 'absolutely nothing wrong' with standard brakes why do you offer a 6 pot conversion?

[Nick Moss]

Nick,

If there is 'absolutely nothing wrong' with standard brakes why do you offer a 6 pot conversion?

I fitted my C12s to my 320 bhp 3.5, but with 130bhp the standard M type calipers are fine.