DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

I am about to embark on my restoration project (spurred on a little by having the most embarrassing early 911 at Hedingham !). Does anyone have any experience of Historika that they can share?

Vimal

They are very experienced and very knowlegeable but I expect they will also be very expensive?!!

thanks Rob - I've heard the comment re expensiveness before. Do you know what that's based on?

Vimal

Guess they've seen the car and given you an idea of potential costs?

Kevin has had a look - but can't give an idea of costs until the car is stripped.

Hi Vimal,
I have worked with Kevin on a restoration.
PM if you want further details.

vimal wrote:Kevin has had a look - but can't give an idea of costs until the car is stripped.

1) Stripped meaning disassembled (so the interior is out and the bolt-on panels are out of the way?)
Or
2) Stripped meaning disassembled and all paint removed by blasting or dipping?

It's certainly fair to decline to quote until 1) is done. And, since the stonechip and paint can hide a multitude of sins, arguably fair to wait until 2) is done before saying anything firm about hours involved.

But in case it helps, let's break it down. I think some work is highly variable in cost depending on condition of the base car. Other bits of work can, in my view, be pretty tightly known up front. If I were you I'd be trying to get a better up-front answer to the more predictable parts.

Metalwork
Here's what I've observed about metalwork, having taken some expert advice: range of hours required for cars in a "usual for the UK" state of decay is variable, but you can take a look at the resto threads to get an idea.
Depends mainly on amount of rust, but let's say 250-400 hours.
Presumably your restorer can give you an hourly rate, so that part is known....
If we imagine 400 hours x 60 GBP per hour (inc VAT) that's:
Metalwork: 24K GBP.
As I say, highly variable.

Engine and Gearbox:
Engine and gearbox rebuilds to standard spec seem to be a known quantity.
See other threads - I reckon a "big name" engine rebuild to standard spec is 15K-20K.
But you don't need that, I think - this is Mike's E, mechanically very good, right? Just take it out and bung it back in when the body is done?

Paint:
200 hours minimum, probably 250, for a really nice job. 250 x 60 = 15K GBP.
This part should be pretty-much quotable up front, in my view, if the same company is doing the metalwork as the paint.
(Of course if you take someone else's metalwork to a painter he's going to reserve the right to estimate the hours depending on the base he has to work with).

Strip down + build up:
Number of hours should be fairly predictable up front, based on past experience?
DIY-ers (especially incompetent ones like me) take ages to do some things, but I would have thought that a pro shop should know how long it takes to strip a car down to the shell and how long it takes to rebuild it? Worth asking for a range up front?

Everything else:
(suspension, interior, other fixtures and fittings)
Highly variable. Depends what's missing / non-original / worn out and what you feel needs replacing / refurbing (e.g. interior - how do you feel about patina vs shiny new). You will be amazed by the cost of some seemingly trivial bits!
But it should be possible to make a list of a fair proportion of the required parts without disassembling anything - very detailed inspection, experience of the parts that always need work / "might as well replace while we have it apart", and road test to look for obvious mechanical defects.
Could ask your restorer to do that up front?
(Expect to pay for that assessment- it's not a trivial task to inspect in that much detail and document the job / parts list).
You can contribute to this one by driving the car around for a while, and looking at it very carefully - develop your own idea of what needs fixing / improving.

BTW if I were you, with a roadworthy car needing resto, I'd be inclined to drive around in it anyway for a few months. Not just because it's fun - because every later decision you have to make will be easier / more likely to be correct if you have direct experience of the car. (This experience is still worthwhile, but less valuable, if you've already previously had an early 911).

Just my 2p - please ignore if you wish!

Cheers, Richard.

inaglasshouse wrote: BTW if I were you, with a roadworthy car needing resto, I'd be inclined to drive around in it anyway for a few months. Not just because it's fun - because every later decision you have to make will be easier / more likely to be correct if you have direct experience of the car. (This experience is still worthwhile, but less valuable, if you've already previously had an early 911).

Just my 2p - please ignore if you wish!

Cheers, Richard.

great post .. but this bit of advice is the best & one I tell to others too ... don't get hung up on rushing into a resto , the car has survived this long so another 6 -12 months won't make much difference ... enjoy it NOW for the car it is , book yourself on the tunnel / ferry for next weekemd & come across to Spa with some other ddk'ers , drive it , add your own memories to it , then when you did take it off the road ( which will suddenly become 2 - 3 years ) you'll have that extra connection with the car that will keep you motivated through those 'down' momwnts everyone gets during a resto

hot66 wrote: great post .. but this bit of advice is the best & one I tell to others too ... don't get hung up on rushing into a resto , the car has survived this long so another 6 -12 months won't make much difference ... enjoy it NOW for the car it is , book yourself on the tunnel / ferry for next weekemd & come across to Spa with some other ddk'ers , drive it , add your own memories to it , then when you did take it off the road ( which will suddenly become 2 - 3 years ) you'll have that extra connection with the car that will keep you motivated through those 'down' momwnts everyone gets during a resto

Richard and James words are spot on.
Be aware that if the car is 'stripped' to assess what needs doing it is then in component form if you change your mind for what ever reason............

I very much agree with the above. Once your car is in bits you are totally reliant on the competence, honesty and integrity of the restorer. There are many rogues around. My restoration, which was supposed to take a year, is just being finished after five years - by someone else! Once in pieces, and you are not happy, it is virtually impossible to pick up your car and leave!
Sadly, because of legal issues, few people are going to expose rogues publicly and on a forum such as ours. I suggest you take the suggested route and speak to as many DDKers personally, and I expect you will get to the bottom of who is fair and reliable and who is not.
Do enjoy your new car while it is in one piece!
Best wishes,
Howard

Difficult one to answer, first question is what do you want from the end result, will it be a daily driver, weekend cruiser, nice show car, concours, fact of life there will always be better cars with bigger budgets and to me that's why I like going to shows like Hedingham to see the great, good and indifferent

Having done this a few times I would say Min cost will be £50k and then it will go from there depending on final spec/finish

My 2p enjoy it while you can until the car or you need to make the choice

Listen to James. Save your money and enjoy it. How does it run?

Vimal, if it was purple/maroon colour and parked in the main lot I liked the fact it wasn't restored and both my friends commented on how nice it would be to drive around without worrying about feeling too precious. Agree with the comments above drive it and take your time.

inaglasshouse wrote:

vimal wrote:Kevin has had a look - but can't give an idea of costs until the car is stripped.

1) Stripped meaning disassembled (so the interior is out and the bolt-on panels are out of the way?)
Or
2) Stripped meaning disassembled and all paint removed by blasting or dipping?

It's certainly fair to decline to quote until 1) is done. And, since the stonechip and paint can hide a multitude of sins, arguably fair to wait until 2) is done before saying anything firm about hours involved.

But in case it helps, let's break it down. I think some work is highly variable in cost depending on condition of the base car. Other bits of work can, in my view, be pretty tightly known up front. If I were you I'd be trying to get a better up-front answer to the more predictable parts.

Metalwork
Here's what I've observed about metalwork, having taken some expert advice: range of hours required for cars in a "usual for the UK" state of decay is variable, but you can take a look at the resto threads to get an idea.
Depends mainly on amount of rust, but let's say 250-400 hours.
Presumably your restorer can give you an hourly rate, so that part is known....
If we imagine 400 hours x 60 GBP per hour (inc VAT) that's:
Metalwork: 24K GBP.
As I say, highly variable.

Engine and Gearbox:
Engine and gearbox rebuilds to standard spec seem to be a known quantity.
See other threads - I reckon a "big name" engine rebuild to standard spec is 15K-20K.
But you don't need that, I think - this is Mike's E, mechanically very good, right? Just take it out and bung it back in when the body is done?

Paint:
200 hours minimum, probably 250, for a really nice job. 250 x 60 = 15K GBP.
This part should be pretty-much quotable up front, in my view, if the same company is doing the metalwork as the paint.
(Of course if you take someone else's metalwork to a painter he's going to reserve the right to estimate the hours depending on the base he has to work with).

Strip down + build up:
Number of hours should be fairly predictable up front, based on past experience?
DIY-ers (especially incompetent ones like me) take ages to do some things, but I would have thought that a pro shop should know how long it takes to strip a car down to the shell and how long it takes to rebuild it? Worth asking for a range up front?

Everything else:
(suspension, interior, other fixtures and fittings)
Highly variable. Depends what's missing / non-original / worn out and what you feel needs replacing / refurbing (e.g. interior - how do you feel about patina vs shiny new). You will be amazed by the cost of some seemingly trivial bits!
But it should be possible to make a list of a fair proportion of the required parts without disassembling anything - very detailed inspection, experience of the parts that always need work / "might as well replace while we have it apart", and road test to look for obvious mechanical defects.
Could ask your restorer to do that up front?
(Expect to pay for that assessment- it's not a trivial task to inspect in that much detail and document the job / parts list).
You can contribute to this one by driving the car around for a while, and looking at it very carefully - develop your own idea of what needs fixing / improving.

BTW if I were you, with a roadworthy car needing resto, I'd be inclined to drive around in it anyway for a few months. Not just because it's fun - because every later decision you have to make will be easier / more likely to be correct if you have direct experience of the car. (This experience is still worthwhile, but less valuable, if you've already previously had an early 911).

Just my 2p - please ignore if you wish!

Cheers, Richard.

What a great post. Invaluable advice but I hope it's a while before I need to rely on it!