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How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:28 pm
by AndrewSlater
Obviously the 911 often rots in the usual places, including the kidney bowls and sills.

does anyone have any recommendations ( or a link to a good thread ) as to how best to check for these issues.
Plenty of the threads have the sills removed but how is often glossed over.

I ask as my 1974 911 project has some rust holes in the outer sill but on quick inspection the kidney bowls look OK.

For the sills am I better to just take them off and inspect the inner sills, or take them back to bare metal and gauge the extent of the rot?

If taking them off is the way to go, is there any good documentation on how best to do this.
I understand I need to remove the top and bottom line of spot welds, but how do you best separate the sill from the metal work at each end.

Finally what is the best way to fully check the kidney bowls ( is it to take the rear quarter area off around the torsion bar cover? )
I'm guessing if you start to take this off its probably best to change the kidney bowls if they appear anything but new.

I don't want to take any of the metalwork apart in a way that makes it difficult to put back right.

Thanks in advance

Andrew

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:05 pm
by Nick Moss
I have never heard of anyone removing the outer sill just to inspect the kidney bowl. Normally any corrosion in the kidney bowl, which is a very small, thin, bowl (really) shaped panel, will be evident in the outer sill or B pillar anyway. You say the sills are perforated, so they need to be replaced anyway, exposing the kidney bowls, jacking points and inner sills. This is not an amateur repair. I know many on here will claim to have done it themselves, but, although it doesn't require specialist knowledge, it does require some panelwork skills to get a perfect, lasting repair with perfect gaps.

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:15 pm
by Barry
Hi Andrew, hope you're well :) .

Best thing to do as a starting point is simply have a good grope around on the front inside of the wheel arch area. If the kidney bowl is going to go, it'll start at the front, right by the 'shelf' formed the rear of the outer sill. Mud piles up there, and it just asks for trouble. An external sign of problems is at the base of the B-post, as it curves into the sill. The B-post effectively ends up double-skinning the top of the outer sill for an inch or so, and generally if that's beginning to blow, the kidney bowl will be on the way out.

I'll write the following a) as a bit of an overview, but b) to underline what Nick has rightly said, it's a reasonable undertaking and once you're underway, you can't go back. It's not really a first DIY welding project, but even then you can do wonders by taking things slow and steady with lots of double checks and safety checks. Plenty of DDK'ers have done fantastic 'DIY' panel work, and I'm afraid there are a few 'specialists' that I wouldn't have weld a wheelbarrow :lol: .

Your repair method depends on the rear wings / quarters. If they are good, and I guess they are, then you'll be opening up a minimum area to repair the outer sills and kidney bowls. The trick here is to remove a section of rear wing in a way that encourages a neat re-assembly. I have the luxury of simply making a custom section every time I do this repair, and can back-mark from the door to get the shut lines I want. It's sometimes possible to re-use the wing section, but be aware that the front section of it (near the jacking point) is often pretty nasty. If the wings are toast, at least you're getting excellent kidney bowl access, but whole world of issues elsewhere.

For outer sill work you'll need to remove the front wings, but before you do anything at all, you need to make a note of your door to rear wing, door to front wing and door to sill gaps. If you have trouble with your front window frames rubbing the tops of your A-pillars, the rear of the car is low, and now is the time to address that, probably on a jig, or at least a quick pull bench. Hopefully all is well, and your gaps look good.

You need to get the car jacked up and supported to exactly reproduce the gaps it has on the ground.

1) Jack under engine, and rest car on rear torsion tube ends with normal axle stands.
2) Jack front of car, and with screw (not pin) type stands, or pin stands with fine shims, support the front of car on front a-arm area so that as you let central trolley jack down, no one stand is taking more weight. Ie you have not induced twist.
3) Using scissor jack and supporting blocks, jack near rear of engine until door gaps return to where they started, and they operate as normal, with no binding or dropping.

You now have a safely supported car. If you've ever seen a car being welded just on pin-type stands with no shims and a hanging rear end, it's now quite likely to have taken the twist of the garage floor, and some droop from the weight of the over-hanging engine :shock: .

Remove sill trims, door seal, carpet trim, carpet near sill join at top, and be ready to remove door to do a nice job. If so, mark location at A-post, and if removing by un-bolting, remove top bolt from each hinge and replace with an 8mm 'screw' made from 8mm bolt with head removed and a slot cut in it. This gives you something to initially hang the door onto when re-fitting. Alternative is to use a hinge pin remover if you can find (or make) one. You really only need to remove the door to complete and tidy the welds right at the front, so don't be I too much of a rush, and have help to hand if they are built up. They are heavy and awkward.

If you replace outer sill, you'll need to put in a new B-post base. I go in just below the pressed 'fold' below the latch area. Don't be tempted to replace the whole thing unless you have to. Having a big chunk of B-post in place is a valuable asset in returning the car to its pre-repair state.

Removing outer sill comes down to removing B-post section and removing section of rear wing. After that you'd drill out the string of spot welds along the top of the sill (literally on that top section usually hidden by the carpet trim), plus in the same area, the welds at the rear of the door seal channel. There are three or four spots at the front of the sill by the A-post (down from the check strap), one on the face of the step next to these welds, a couple more on the step itself just forward again, and then a string down the base of the wing closer. Then all the way along the bottom, and up and around the kidney bowl. Be aware that you'll want a fairly long reach spot drill to do the ones inside the rubber seal channel.

Any stubborn bits can be dealt with with a sharp, small cold chisel: you're not brutalising anything here, just teasing out the edges of any slightly mis-drilled spot welds. Sometimes it's easier to cut with a grinder (I won't go into the elves of safety here) the bulk of the sill out of the way, and then go back in to remove the flanges. If you do this, be very careful when cutting the base: it's very, very close to the inner sill here, and it's easy to catch it.

Anyway, that should get you into the sill area. It'll then be clear what the kidney bowl and inner sills are like.

Important! Only do one side at a time. That way a) you'll always have a reference, and b) you've kept as much strength in the car as possible. It's very easy to get causal about this, and the. End up with a car that doesn't quite look 'right' at the end of it.

I'd say that this could be a skilled DIY job, UNLESS:

1) If the car is known to be bent, has iffy gaps (especially ones that are much bigger at the top than the bottom rear of doors) or has the front window frames rubbing on the top of the A-pillars, you need it jigging.

2) If you can't do a reliable plug weld. On a test piece, a sample weld should be shiny on top, nearly level and have a pimple on the substrate layer underneath, and withstand destruction tests. If your welder is between 120-160 amps, it needs to be on maximum, or one down from maximum on 18 (sill) gauge metal.

3) If you can t take your time and allow twenty hours per side for the whole process of outer sill, kidney bowl and rear wing re-attachment. I can do them quicker (obviously), but that's certainly not a case of being better, and a DIY'er taking their time is something to be praised. After six months, whether something took two weekends or six will be forgotten, but the quality of the fit and finish will hang around for decades.

Pit-falls:

a) I'd use genuine sills only: the pattern products are garbage, and just make a DIY job much harder, event the inner sills need reworking to allow the outer sill to fit in the right place: avoid.

b) The sills currently available are 993 ones: they have extra pressings and holes. If you're running sill trims, these hide them. If not, they'll require re-working.

c) You can get genuine and pattern B-posts. These can both be used, and most of it goes in the bin, so might decide to go pattern. If you do, be aware that they'll require a bit of reworking on the offside, and a ton of reworking to the near side (they are too narrow).

d) Be prepared to end up doing inner sills, and therefore possibly jacking points and reinforcements. This is why we supported the car very well right from the start. The actual welding of the inner sills is easier than the outers, but joining in near the jacking point strongly requires some thinking about.

We can deal with the intricacies of the actual welding another time: there's a ton of stuff to think about when it comes to getting the outer sill into the right place (tight and neat), and getting all gaps back to where they should be.

By far the hardest thing though, is getting that rear wing back together without major distortion and wonky gaps. I have tons of pictures of sills as you'd expect: will investigate a new picture host, and get some up :) .

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:36 pm
by 911hillclimber
I think this is a job for a DIY with time and a brain. Getting good welds is key especially if any repair steel is pre-galvanised as you will surely need to patch some areas before the major panels are fitted.

We all know Barry is the expert and what a great instruction sheet that is! I've only done this job once and a long time ago on my 911 which is still intact after 26 years when I did it. I had done similar jobs on MGB's etc, and the 911 is not much different in approach (I now duck for cover).

I used pattern sills for the inner and outers. The outers were as good as Barry's welded wheelbarrow, terrible fit, the galvanised inners were really hard to weld, but I used a spot welder not plug welding as much as I could.

Slow-and-Easy is the idea.

At that time I used the Lindsay Porter and Peter Morgan book ' Guide to purchase and DIY restoration Porsche 911' Page 96 to 101 will help you.

Start a Thread!

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:23 pm
by haasad
I had done similar jobs on MGB's etc, and the 911 is not much different in approach (I now duck for cover).
^^^^so right....

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:09 pm
by Barry
Actually if I remember, the B is very similar in principle.

People get very up their own bottoms when it comes to 911's, but frankly they are no harder to work on than a lot of British iron or similar. The downside is that the standards required to get to a good factory standard are higher. The upside is the starting point is better built and more accurate.

Nevertheless, if you can do an MG well, you can probably do a 911 well. If you can only do a MG badly, you'll probably do a 911 badly.

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:50 pm
by 911hillclimber
Indeed, that lower castle section make them a bit odd, but the standard of pro re-built 911 shells now is so high on fit the game is so hard to match as a DIY'er
When I did my 911 back then, just a year after my MGB GT I think the two cars were comparable from a workmanship point of view, but today the 911 bench mark is so high, not sure MG's are built as well even as a Heritage shell.

I'm thinking of re-doing my 911 as the paint is starting to blister, so back to metal. BUT, I think I would have to re-do all those repairs (ie under the rear torsion tube) again as people expect these areas to be factory shaped and perfect.
Then there are the Dansk door skins I used.... :?

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:16 am
by AndrewSlater
Hi everyone, thanks for all the helpful support and encouragement.

My original plan was to ask Barry to work his magic on the car, but unfortunately his waiting list doth runneth over.
So plan B was to find a mere mortal to do the work ;)

My local bodyshop that does a lot of 911s have quoted for the work on a 'typical' car but I have yet to convince them that they should see the car first to get a more accurate estimate.

As such I thought I would try to scope the work myself and make it easier for someone else to view and estimate works.
The reasons for my initial questions was to ensure that I strip the sills back in a way that won't make it more difficult than normal to redo.

Of course the more encouragement I get the more I'm considering doing some of the work myself :)

The car is really a project car for me to work on with my 14 year old son.
The time taken to complete isn't really an issue as I'm trying to teach him that we can do anything given enough preparation, time and most importantly patience.

The car has plenty of other areas needing attention including needing two new wings, wing joining panels, a new drivers door and probably a tank support panel - to name a few!!

So in summary thanks for everyones help and encouragement and a big thank you to Barry for his very detailed response - which I expect I will pore over in detail.

I am away for a few days but I will endeavour to post some pictures of the troublesome sills shortly.

I will probably also start a restoration thread [ assuming I can convince Bootsy my car is a late late '73 model ;) ]
It might get deleted for being an impact bumper model.

Again thanks to everyone.

Andrew

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:34 pm
by 911hillclimber
Can't imagine the Boss will delete, we may get grumpy if you don't do a thread with good pics regularly, the un-written rule of DDK.
:)

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:52 am
by AndrewSlater
So here is a brief update on further inspection of the sill area on the car.

The worst side is the offside/right side where the initial diagnosis is:-

Outer sill: holed at top where it meets door jam, underneath the kidney bowl and at the bottom front
Inner sill: not sure yet
Kidney bowl: hole in bottom
door jamb: can't see any rust except possibly the lip where it joins the wing
rear quarter / wing: Holed in several places around the kidney bowls.

Image
I splashed some rust treatment on but the holes didn't vanish ;)

The better side is the nearside/left side where the initial diagnosis is:-

Outer sill: holed at top where it meets door jam, and at the bottom front
Inner sill: not sure yet (think is might be holed near front )
Kidney bowl: difficult to inspect (no hole in sill / wing at this point )
door jamb: can't see any rust at all
rear quarter / wing: All looks good

Image

My nearside door was removed as it had been dented and then rusted in storage for quite a while I think.

Image

but have a possible replacement door - however when hinged there seems quite a large gap between it and the wing. Theres no shims fitted at the top but I kind of need an anti-shim!! I'm wondering if the hinge I swapped off the old door is bent.

So that's the update. I hope to work on the car over the weekend.

My options are to drop the engine ( to get it out the way and put less stress on the cars body - I'm guessing that will help? ), or try to unpick one of the outer sills to inspect further.

As I know the outer sills are toast if I was to pick the worst side first, what would be the best way to remove it with some spot cutting drills and an air saw?

Keep the advice coming - always welcome.
Andrew

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:19 pm
by 911hillclimber
Best to get the lump out of the rear and the tank from the front too as I think you will be 'visiting' that end too...

Follow Barry's method of support and approach and all will be ok.

you have a typical old 911 shell, nothing to be worried about.

Rules of DDK:

Lots of progress posts and lots of good clear pictures.

:drunken: :)

Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:41 pm
by sladey
Before you go much further you're going to need to brace the door and as Graham says jack it up properly. You perhaps need to decide whether you're going to DIY or not - if you strip it right down its not going to be easy to transport it to a garage


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Re: How to best inspect door sills and kidney bowl area

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:01 pm
by AndrewSlater
sladey wrote:Before you go much further you're going to need to brace the door and as Graham says jack it up properly. You perhaps need to decide whether you're going to DIY or not - if you strip it right down its not going to be easy to transport it to a garage


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yes thanks for the advice - need to decide which way I am going to go.
Have left the suspension and wheels on for the moment to simplify moving the car.
Have also left the front screen in to keep some structural integrity also.

Does anyone have a recommendation of a door brace that works well with the 911?
Have seen some on eBay but not sure how they would work well with the 911 doorway.

Thanks
Andrew