DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

This should stay in Members Only I think and is a bit of a rant, log of events for myself and question on next steps.

Sadly, i have not had much luck with my project in the past year or so.

It's a long story, but the entire project has left me extremely bitter (and feeling VERY ripped off), but there is nothing (cost effective) that I can do about it it would seem, and I now look upon it with a certain amount of 'hatred' - it's never going to make me happy.

The shell was imported by me a few years ago. LHD, September 1969 build, 911T - missing engine and gearbox and with wider rear arches welded on. It had rot. Front pan was shot as were outer sills, but floors were solid as was the rear parcel shelf and to my eye, the kidney bowls also seemed in reasonable nick. but it was a project to build a fun car which would handle well, not a period perfect collectors piece - (nothing wrong with those at all, but this one was already a bitsa).

Initially the work went to plan and a fairly reasonable budget was put aside. A 'rebuilt' engine and gearbox were sourced and I began to buy parts as and when I saw them, knowing that this would cost £20k and take time - something agreed with the garage who were helping with the work and we agreed payment terms to suit that budget and timeframe.

The place that was doing the work will remain nameless for now as legals are continuing. But they seemed to be lacking in work and the pace of work accelerated rapidly, and i began to get requests for more money every couple of weeks, and we are talking a couple of thousand a time.

Statements like 'the wolf is at the door' etc were bandied about and i saw a letter showing that they were over their £9k OD limit with the bank - none of it my fault, but then they were doing a good job and it seemed OK to pay up.

Then the £5k bill came in with zero discernible work having been done as the shell had been 'waiting for a slot at the paint shop'....

The story is in another thread, but I said stop all work - and they continued to work on the car having it sprayed. A few dishonest rumours also began to surface and the moment I questioned the bill and work I was sworn at and shouted at. When i questioned if the engine had really been 'rebuilt' and asked for the photos they said they had they didn't speak to me for a month - there was a reason why i questioned this....

At this point i gave up on the phone as they were tripping over themselves with lies and would say one thing one day and contradict it the next day.

Like a fool, I tried to help, but things spiralled downhill very quickly as they threatened to put my car outside if i didn't 'pay up'.

Anyway, legals started at considerable cost to me and we are getting close to conclusion where I will get the shell back from them in a partially completed state.... not happy, spent a fortune, got not a lot back and a million miles from finishing.

I dare not go down there as, although nothing has been said, it wouldn't take much for them to get physical I suspect..

It was in fairly typical shape, but work carried out was:

Strip paint from body.
New outer sills
New tank support and pan
New kidney bowls
New door 'shuts' where the lock is
1 x New front wing sourced by me
Wider steel rear arches grafted on
No filler added, all leaded and braised in what was described as 'old school'
Surfaces etch primed, prepped, primed and then sprayed Viper Green
Now totally straight and rust free.

Front and rear suspension rebuilt
Front adjustable Koni
Rear bilsteins
All Superpro bushes
Front Turbo tie rod steering upgrade including alloy crossmember and anti roll bar
Rear spring plates replaced with adjustable - originals available

Callipers reconditioned by classicar
New front and rear bearings
New disks and pads
New drums and shoes
New brake lines
Pedal box rebuilt
New master cylinder
New handbrake cables

Fibreglass S bumper
Fibreglass RS rear bumper
Alloy and rubber front and rear bumper trims and rear reflectors. - not fitted
All new rubber seals:
Doors
Luggage compartment
Slam panel
Bumper to body front
Bumper to body rear
Scuttle seals
Lots of other little rubber seals

All glass, bright surrounds, bonnet, doors, fuel flap, engine lid, locks etc etc all there - not fitted

Flapper boxes reconditioned.

New rear lenses - not fitted
New front lenses - not fitted
Black front horn grills - not fitted

Original clocks
Loom and electrics all fitted
Nice leather steering wheel
Ok dash - not fitted
Original door cards, winders and handles - not fitted
915 gear stick - not fitted
Lightweight carpet set - not fitted
Currently on some shonky fake Fuchs.

Now, the list of work was mostly completed by them, particularly the bodywork, but I mucked in, rebuilding the hubs and suspension parts and fitting them back on the shell.

Lots more parts available separately such as:

Gold rear lettering - not fitted
New fuel tank and sender - not fitted
Chrome door handles - not fitted
Chrome windscreen nozzles - not fitted
Rear grill - not fitted
Duck tail - not fitted
Minilites 8" - not fitted
Fuchs 7" - not fitted
Full set of cookie cutters with winter tyres - not fitted
Bonnet badges - not fitted
Vin plate
Original factory sticker on cut out door shut
Porsche COA
Unregistered but VAT paid
Rebuilt 915 gearbox with cable drive and cross beam support - not fitted
Electrical safety switch with remote pull - not fitted
Rubber tie downs - not fitted
Rennspeed drilled aluminium floorboards - not fitted

So to finish this off will take the interior being painted, probably black, the fitting of all of the above bits and pieces and new headliner, the finding of a 2.2 engine and oil tank which should plug in and go - two driveshafts with CVs, a bit of levelling out and ideally changing the rear arms and adding a rear ARB and mounts as the car doesn't have them.

Car is in the SE at the moment, but will look at moving west via covered transport ASAP.

Having written all that it has reminded me how excited about the project I was when I started and the time and money I have sunk into getting everything right, every part new etc

But the real question is where to go from here. I dont think that all the parts listed above is worth that much as individual items. I don't think a bright green shell, even if it is perfect, will draw a huge amount of interest or a decent cash figure, particularly as being far from original. Any ideas would be great before it goes up here and on ebay. I am loathed to put any more money into it as it really does depress me, and I suspect this is my last foray into classic Porsche ownership.

Some lessons, hard learnt here:

Don't try and do things on the cheap - go to a well known firm.
Get everything in writing and on paper or email in case things go wrong.
Don't manage these people as friends.
Stick to the deal agreed.
The law is not actually very good or clear on these types of disputes and solicitors make a lot of money in back and forward letters.
People are dishonest and really do want to cheat you....

The shell could do with an inspection again too as I still haven't seen it in the flesh.

And to this day, there has been no breakdown of the £5k bill other than 'work on car'.

When I have it and all the parts back, i suspect there will be a small claims court case too.

That's tough experience, sorry to read of your woes. When I got my car I also spent a significant (5 figures) sum of money with a well known specialist and really didn't feel like I got value for money. Some of the work seemed to me to have been completed to a very poor standard and the whole deal left a bitter taste in my mouth. I also didn't end up with a very usable car - which was the main objective.

I ended up biting the bullet, and with a lot of help from friendly DDK members, am undertaking a restoration myself. I've made some mistakes, and progress is slow, but I"m learning lots about old 911s and feel a whole lot better about things now.

Can you just stick the thing in the back of your garage, and make another start on it when you feel the spirit move again?

>C

Charles' advice is worth considering. In my opinion if you have a sound properly restored and painted shell (still to be confirmed by the sounds of it) then the part most people find the worst bit is behind you. Putting this thing back together can be achieved relatively quickly by any competent person with mechanical aptitude when you are back in the right frame of mind, and there are plenty of people on here prepared to help. Sourcing an engine and box might also not be as hard as it sounds if you can be patient.

Certainly getting it together when your enthusiasm has returned will give you the best chance of getting some/most of your money back in my view.

Ebay will be a nightmare!

Best wishes whatever

Mick

Well I hope you get to a better place with your project. My first and sadly only foray into pre-73 ownership was pretty horrible, although fortunately I didn't have to end up suing anyone - the guilty party went some way to making amends pre-law-suit. However, it left me with a very sour feeling about the industry in general and one "specialist" in particular. I assumed it was one bad apple, but have recently heard a tale of very similar woe with a provider of services well-known in these parts which is sorely disappointing. Of course there are two sides to most stories.

I'm contemplating getting a project to start - learning to do and doing a lot myself. But I do stop and think, do I want to get into this, what seems to be a dangerous world?

But surely that's wrong? It must be a mostly honourable profession, surely?

Hope you get things sorted.
Graham

Well as I know exactly who the firm is and having just paid out £15k for their utter incompetence I can sympathise with you totally Dan.

But then you already know that

I really do hope you get sorted. They are scum bags of the highest order.

I think the best chance you have of 1. Enjoying what you have or 2. Recovering as much of your outlay as possible will be by finishing the car yourself as suggested above, if you have the ability. Although we don't know what you're outlay is to date so it's a tricky one...

Maybe when you start putting it together your enthusiasm will return...

Best of luck with it though.

gridgway wrote:
I assumed it was one bad apple, but have recently heard a tale of very similar woe with a provider of services well-known in these parts which is sorely disappointing.

Seems to be the most common story I hear than anything else for work carried out by 'specialists'....soooo many people seem to pay big bills they were not expecting that it appears to be sadly a common occurrence.

Poor communication by the charging dealers or deliberate actions? I'm not that sure these days....

When my backdate work was completed the bill was a real shock. I'd banked on 3-4K, and they said they had timesheets for 12K. I referred them back to the respraying quote I'd initially had of 2.5K and we compromised at 6K

I then had a worrying time with the business as I had to take the money out of the business to pay for it, and again that was upsetting as got created conflict with my partners. The whole thing took the shine off the new car.

Thankfully, those feelings passed.

A full restoration is a big project. Even if things are going well it must be hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel at times. I'm currently doing my sills myself (turns out the backdate work didn't involve any sort of rust protection!) and it's dragging out longer than I thought it would - so all you can see ahead of you is grinding and welding - the idea of an actual car seems a million miles away. I can only imagine the feelings on a full resto must be worse, and falling out with the garage must make you want to throw the towel in.

Please don't

If you can, try and do some of the assembly work yourself. It certainly sounds like you've been through the worst, and the screwing of bits onto a nice shiny shell is joyful work.

Once you've got it together you'll have one of the best road cars in the world - you'll have real driver involvement and excitement at still- legal speeds; the handling is fantastic when you get used to it; the engine noise is superb. Driving down the street people will look at you and smile - no envy, just admiration for a thing of beauty; small boys will swoon; men will cheer, and women will show their breasts in appreciation. All of this awaits you in your finished car.

I might have exaggerated a bit, but you've got all the fun ahead of you.

Hope that helps

Sorry to hear about this. As has been said the bit that will redeem it is just around the corner. It will be an asset when done and I think you should make every effort to finish it. Folk like me who could never afford to farm out much work has crisis along the way, how far west are you coming ...bet there's some good help you can rope in and how satisfying will it be to be part of completing your own car rather than continually handing out cash.

Andy

Come on people name names - stop others getting ripped off.

I also have had awful service from one particular 'specialist'

Talked the talk and delivered (late) a shocking product.

Deeply out of pocket, after getting corrected elsewhere.

Why not in the members section ??

Steve

Sorry to read that Dan. I hope you can find a way forward, complete what sounds like a great car and put all this behind you

So sorry to read your story. It sounds like a nightmare and having a quick scan through your threads you have done your homework and know what you are after. I am currently having my 1970 T restored in Utah, never actually seen it in person but get sent photos every few days. They guys working on it only want paying when the works been done which is usually a bill once a month. They are happy to answer all my ill informed questions and nothing is too much trouble. I have to say the US has its fair share of scammers and shysters (anyone read any threads on Meister Motors) however all the guys I have dealt with over the pond have been so courteous, helpful and eager to do a great job. I always thought it was a myth about US service being better than ours and as someone who deals with the public I didn't agree, however a few of the guys (not all) I spoke to in the UK couldn't be bothered to get back to me, told me how much money it was going to be before seeing the job and were generally a bit miserable. I guess time will tell whether I get bitten. I really hope you can turn yours around and if possible sit on it for a bit before putting the car on ebay etc. I know its easy to say but if you are able to restore the car then you win despite them, if not then they do.
Good luck.

sladey wrote: men will cheer, and women will show their breasts in appreciation

No one told me that, cant wait for mine to arrive in the UK!

Hi Dan

Sorry to hear of your troubles and hope it works out in the end. I had a project go bad as well so you are most definitely not alone. Should have been a dream come true but ended in frustration and a bit of a nightmare. I ended up buying someone else's project and the one thing I will say is that it is worth persevering. Once you have a sorted car there is nothing quite like it. I tried a number of cars and 911 variants but an early 911 was always what I wanted and has so far lived up to expectations.

Best of luck.

Feroz

wow, you are brave Jos! If you are in the UK and the restoration is in Utah, that feels very scary to me, but then I'm a bit biased about the whole thing.
Graham

Midlifecrisis wrote:So sorry to read your story. It sounds like a nightmare and having a quick scan through your threads you have done your homework and know what you are after. I am currently having my 1970 T restored in Utah, never actually seen it in person but get sent photos every few days. They guys working on it only want paying when the works been done which is usually a bill once a month. They are happy to answer all my ill informed questions and nothing is too much trouble. I have to say the US has its fair share of scammers and shysters (anyone read any threads on Meister Motors) however all the guys I have dealt with over the pond have been so courteous, helpful and eager to do a great job. I always thought it was a myth about US service being better than ours and as someone who deals with the public I didn't agree, however a few of the guys (not all) I spoke to in the UK couldn't be bothered to get back to me, told me how much money it was going to be before seeing the job and were generally a bit miserable. I guess time will tell whether I get bitten. I really hope you can turn yours around and if possible sit on it for a bit before putting the car on ebay etc. I know its easy to say but if you are able to restore the car then you win despite them, if not then they do.
Good luck.

I would hope that since 60+% of the people living in Utah claim to

13 Article of Faith
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I would hope that in general the honest is a bit higher than normal but maybe I expect too much.

But back on subject with my build going on in Newdigate I offered them a intern partial payment but they refused because they weren't happy about how long they were taking to do it! Make me release they were trying to do a good job.