DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Dear all,

I could do with a bit of advice on panel gaps. I am fitting a rear quarter and outer sill on a 71 911s. I am starting from the back so would some guidance on engine lid panel gaps - side and top, that should give me some alignment on the rear of the quarter panel. From there I am hoping to get the door and sill lined up, so I am after standard panel gaps for front, back and bottom of the door.

Finally if I havent exhausted all my wishes if anyone has a picture (s) of around the where the top of the front of the door / door frame meets the windscreen pillar / wing that would be really useful. I am trying to see typical gaps on the window frame to the windscreen pillar.

Thanks,

Roger

Panel Gaps.........overrated......

andy

Hi Roger, technically the gaps should be 4mm: that's the dimension given in the Porsche manual, which I've always assumed is a bare-metal measurement. A lot of door to sill gaps that you see are a little less which looks quite natural in fact, although any publicity shots of early (certainly SWB) cars show quite clearly an even gap right round the doors. As the cars get later you see more shots of apparently smaller gaps at the base. Even so, I wouldn't go much below 3.75, and make sure you make a judgement looking at a 'car on wheels' height: this is also true of the top curve of the front doors and the engine lid: all look quite different from different heights.

For a while I was aiming around 3.75mm all over which doesn't sound much of a difference, but really looks sharp. The reality though was that is wasn't leaving the painters (or me) any safety margin, so I've returned to the full 4mm, with the possible exception of the rear wings to engine lid, which do look better with a tiny fraction less, as do bonnet to front wings (esp as these get bedded on sealant which tends to open them up a bit if not careful).

Certainly reference to the engine lid, but be aware that outer wings vary a tad over the rear light area, so occasionally you end up building up the very rear edge by a mm or so. It's as well to get the door sitting well: front door frame (as in the actual door panel) will be sitting around 4mm from the A-pillar (again, you can't rely fully on this, as this area is leaded on both sides so subject to vary somewhat). Another tip is to look at the rear of the door where the glass frame sits: there is a small web behind the glass frame bridging between the rear of the doorskin, and the inside of the door. The forward edge of this insert wants to be roughly in line with the return of the door seal lip.

The one thing to trust the least is the front wing position: it's highly adjustable compared to everything else, so that needs to be the last panel to fit.

As for the sill, establish door position, and the front-to rear position of the sill is dictated by the crease that takes the front wing at the base. This in turn dictates the jacking point position, and the KB. Obviously if you've got a KB there already, that'll give you some ideas.

Finally don't use pattern sills: you might as well try fitting Cortina ones for all the precision they have. They'll only give problems, tempting as they may look, what with being an 'early' appearance.

HTH.

Forgot to say, if your front window frames will only go in with a large gap at the base, and nearly rubbing at the top / front of the A-pillar, the rear of the car may have sagged: many of them have done it over the years, and I'd say 90% of the cars that have been on the jig here have needed a bum-lift.

The priority with the front window frames is to get them as parallel to the A-pillar as possible. You'll often find that if you get nice gaps on the outer panels, that you struggle to get nice gaps on the frames, and visa-versa. All you can do is try to tweak things to find the best all-round look. Some cars (or kits of parts if you like) are better than others.

Just one thing Roger, looking back through your posts, I can't find an introduction: is this your car?

Either way, welcome to the forum

Many thanks Barry,

Thanks for the welcome - my background is VW, starting with a trials beetle which is now running a 2.4 type 4 that I built. This was followed by a lot of campers and many hours welding, splits and bays which my wife now hires - www.campersincornwall.co.uk. Porsche wise I had a 993 for 8 years and 120k miles as my daily driver, and then swapped it out for a 993 turbo which I have had for 2 years now, love it despite the supercar bills!.

I fancied a new project looked at 356's etc and then found an abandoned project 71 911s (will be signal orange) that is in bits. It is an ex Swiss car that then went to the US, it has seen some action.... to say the least but I think I will get there. I have stripped it back to a shell and sandblasted it and now recreating it.

I'd put some pictures up but I dont know how to do that!!!! - what do I need to do?

Cheers,

Roger

Where in Cornwall are you? Couple of us from Kernow on here...

Interesting question, especially door gaps. Both leading 911 body men John Williams at Chestertons, and Bruce Cooper at Sportwagen say
the top door gap, door to wing/scuttle that is, should be bigger that the door sides and sill gap as they were when they left the factory.

Barry wrote:Forgot to say, if your front window frames will only go in with a large gap at the base, and nearly rubbing at the top / front of the A-pillar, the rear of the car may have sagged: many of them have done it over the years, and I'd say 90% of the cars that have been on the jig here have needed a bum-lift.

The priority with the front window frames is to get them as parallel to the A-pillar as possible. You'll often find that if you get nice gaps on the outer panels, that you struggle to get nice gaps on the frames, and visa-versa. All you can do is try to tweak things to find the best all-round look. Some cars (or kits of parts if you like) are better than others.

I agree with you that the front window frames have to be as parallel to the A-pillar as possible. My previous car had that problem on the right side of the car (I was informed by Autofarm). However the left side was OK. Don't know why it was just on one side.

They also told me that the sills around the jacking points need to be replaced with later ones (Porsche later increased the gauge of the sill panels to strengthen this very area, so that the bodyshell remains in shape).

rft218 wrote: I'd put some pictures up but I dont know how to do that!!!! - what do I need to do?

Cheers,

Roger

Here're you go Roger: it's our initiation process!

http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewto ... f=1&t=3864

Barry wrote:For a while I was aiming around 3.75mm all over which doesn't sound much of a difference, but really looks sharp. The reality though was that is wasn't leaving the painters (or me) any safety margin

Keeps them honest though!

Roger, did you buy your car from Raf in Surrey.?

Dave

Mike wrote:Both leading 911 body men

You mean there's only two!…...

I'm pretty pleased with how my gaps have turned out….



I always think the gap at the top of the door/front wing where it curves looks slightly wider though even when it's exactly the same when measured; must be how the light catches it and the angle you're viewing from.

Mike wrote:Interesting question, especially door gaps. Both leading 911 body men John Williams at Chestertons, and Bruce Cooper at Sportwagen say
the top door gap, door to wing/scuttle that is, should be bigger that the door sides and sill gap as they were when they left the factory.

Certainly the manual states this, in fact states that 'the door gap should be 3-4mm at the bottom, front and rear. At the top the front door gap should be a maximum of 4mm from the windshield pillar'.

The reality is that if you look through the rest of the bodywork section, all gaps are illustrated as being 4mm, and actually there is some ambiguity as to whether this statement refers to the outer door gaps, or the dimension from the door frame to the A-pillar (windshield piller).

Certainly if you look all the way through Frere's Porsche 911 Story (ISBN 1 85260 590 1), there are no cars that seem to have the sort of door-gap differences suggested above.

I can see that the shallower angle of view might suggest that a wider gap would be required to give the illusion of a match with it's sisters (brother's?), but I would contend that this is offset by the fact that gaps in this area have far more light 'in' them. In turn this deprives them of the usual dark shaddowing seen in most of the other gaps, leaving them looking larger than they really are.

Anyway, I'm sure there are endless views on this, but I can say that I aim for 4mm all round, and that seems to be a good starting point for the painters.

Without a shadow of doubt, if you set the gaps to 3mm in the metal, you'd not have enough room for the painters ....

Interesting talking point, these gaps, and I'm always ready to bow to the leaders in our field ....