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The economics of commercial restoration...
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:11 pm
by gridgway
Not sure if this is the right place for this question, nor whether the subject is too full of trade secrets. And prompted by Sam's comment about the 7k car being too expensive for Nick Moss, here goes...
A couple of years ago when I was searching for a GT3, Nick Cartwright had one I went to see. Whilst there I was chatting about the restorations of Dinos which he is famous for. He said that basically he had stopped doing it as it had become uneconomic. On the basis that Dinos range from 70 to 100+, that means it's seriously expensive to restore them commercially.
How does that translate into the commercial world of early 911s for the likes of Alan and Nick? Is it much cheaper relative to values than Dino restoration?
Or is it seriously hard work to get it done for less than market value?
Graham
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:28 pm
by 964RS
I'd guess it is very dependent on the actual model concerned, the 'parts' needed to restore it and the condition of the metalwork/mechanics.
And barry's labour rates....
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:00 pm
by Nick Moss
It's very hard to do a full, bare metal restoration with new trim, suspension, brakes, rebuilt engine and gearbox, for less than £50K on any 911, so work it out. That S was non matching numbers and a Targa
, What's that worth restored? Not a lot. I have no idea what Dinos cost or are worth, but with 2.4Ss needing restoration costing £30K-£40K now, it's no wonder that a perfect one is now selling at over £90K
I am building a car at the moment that is budgeted at over £90K, it's not difficult to get into that price range. Ask Sam how much their retro cars cost their customers
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:03 pm
by richkaz
basically he had stopped doing it as it had become uneconomic. On the basis that Dinos range from 70 to 100+, that means it's seriously expensive to restore them commercially.
I can easily understand that. This little gem was on offer last month at Beaulieu. I remember thinking that even if the selling dealer had bought it in at £75-80K , how much could he have made if he sold it at £ 98K asking price ? - The car looked showroom fresh from the new leather to the superb paint finish. Can't be much profit there ??
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:03 pm
by Sam
nick-moss wrote:It's very hard to do a full, bare metal restoration with new trim, suspension, brakes, rebuilt engine and gearbox, for less than £50K on any 911, so work it out. That S was non matching numbers and a Targa
, What's that worth restored? Not a lot. I have no idea what Dinos cost or are worth, but with 2.4Ss needing restoration costing £30K-£40K now, it's no wonder that a perfect one is now selling at over £90K
I am building a car at the moment that is budgeted at over £90K, it's not difficult to get into that price range. Ask Sam how much their retro cars cost their customers
The s targa was worse than not matching number, it had an E motor. Maybe 30k done?
Our retros cost the same as a restoration, plus a few custom bits we have to make like Ali bonnet, bumpers, wheels, most folk want air con. Add to that the price of a half decent 964 and you're basically at new 911 money. Not cheap, entirely due to lots and lots of hours to do it right. Fortunately they don't depreciate like new cars and they're a darn sight better finished.
It rarely makes financial sense to restore a car commercially unless the end product is worth over 100k, but you get the satisfaction of saving a piece of history and of doing something exactly as you want it.
Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:55 pm
by Ian Gunney
I think that Dino may have been the old my old man had in his workshop about 6 months back for a full bare metal repaint - if it isn't it's the same colour, interior (and has the wrong Ferrari badges which the customer wanted left on!!)
Any old car is a labour of love in reality for most people - many people just want them put back together properly so that they can enjoy then and as long as they can afford to have the work done, they aren't too worried.
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:10 am
by 72911E
If it's 50K to restore a 911, what has changed in the last few years that the restoration costs have gone up?
Cars like Ferrymans were being restored and sold for Circa 50K back in 2007.
100K for a RHD S, think we are heading for a (or are in) a bubble here.
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:17 am
by Sam
Porsches don't boom and bust, they just creep gently and pleasingly.
Compare and contrast what 911 prices have done over the years against Ferrari prices.
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:36 pm
by Alan @ CanfordClassics
Hello,
I am very interested in this question and agree with previous comments made, but do think that it is very hard to give prices, it is 100% dependant on the car and to what level the work is being done.
Now, if I am being brutally honest you cannot even work on a profit margin when planning a restoration. This is why many companies do not fully restore (now I am talking original pre 73 and such like, not back dates) and then sell them to make their income, but restore cars for customers. Honestly have a look round, there are very few companies buying cars restoring them and selling them. This is simply due to the level of unknown work involved. Is it commercially profitable? Well yes or there would be no one doing it, but this is due to having the experience and for example spare parts, good supplier contacts & and being able to make parts needed and also as this is a profession where the traders involved clearly also have a passion for these cars they go the extra mile and thus profit margin is not the most important factor. In fact in our case it is behind a good quality product and customer service.
Hope that makes sense
Alan
Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:52 pm
by Lightweight_911
Sam @ PS Autoart wrote:Porsches don't boom and bust, they just creep gently and pleasingly.
Not quite true - check what happened to 2.7 RS prices between the late '80's & early '90's ...
Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:13 pm
by Histrally
This to me is all about why do you want a classic car as it applies equally to most makes. In fact the lower the market value of the car the more difficult it is to realise the investment you perhaps have made. Do you want the car because you are an enthusiast or do you want it as an investment.
To me it is the former and I will never expect to get back what I have invested. Obviously the more work you can do yourself the less the actual outlay. For a professional they must make a profit so I can fully understand why they don't generally restore cars for resale. For cars where new bodyshells are now available like MGB etc the labour content is significantly lower and we can see some companies using that route to sell restored cars.
This is why generally it is more economic to purchase a car previously well restored than one that needs a full restoration.
Classic cars to me are there to be used not kept as show pieces but then it perhaps is good that we are all different.
Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:27 pm
by Tosh
My Porsche shaped rust passed through here nearly 2 years back. A very early Sporto, SWB, but a T
Alan was brutally honest with me - budget somewhere near to 40k to restore it, plus what it cost you and you'll have a car worth 35 at the outside
Chatted with one of the Pagoda specialists more than 5 years back and he did the odd restoration to fill the quiet times in the 'shop (Roger Edwards motors). If the base car was more than £5k, there's no money in it. So while Pagoda prices have crept up, they're still generally cheaper than (say) Helen's old S.
It has to be a labour of love, rather than a head decision to restore all but the rarest - or future rarest - cars. Which reminds me, I saw a cracking looking orange 1978......Morris Marina the other day. Could have been a new car, even down to the wonky door handle
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:54 pm
by Roadrunner
richkaz wrote:basically he had stopped doing it as it had become uneconomic. On the basis that Dinos range from 70 to 100+, that means it's seriously expensive to restore them commercially.
I can easily understand that. This little gem was on offer last month at Beaulieu. I remember thinking that even if the selling dealer had bought it in at £75-80K , how much could he have made if he sold it at £ 98K asking price ? - The car looked showroom fresh from the new leather to the superb paint finish. Can't be much profit there ??
Do you recall who the dealer selling it was ? A friend of mine is looking for a Dino in exactly that colour combination.
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:09 pm
by richkaz
Do you recall who the dealer selling it was ? A friend of mine is looking for a Dino in exactly that colour combination.
No, but it wasn't a dealer that I had heard of in the past. I am sure the Bieulieu people could tell you if you told them it was not in the main sales arena but directly opposite the Bonhams auction tent, somewhere between Ivor Bleaney ( Rolls Royce) and a nice collection of about 5 Austin Healeys for sale.
Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:37 pm
by Barry
964RS wrote:I'd guess it is very dependent on the actual model concerned, the 'parts' needed to restore it and the condition of the metalwork/mechanics.
And barry's labour rates....
Just seen this
.