DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Hello again!
I thought I'd start a fresh thread about my starting problems!

I've taken the starter out and it doesn't have 6 or 12 volts stamped on it;
1) how can I find out what it is?

2) is it the same as a VW; different teeth on flywheel etc for 6 or 12 volts or are they both the same, ie; can a 12 volt starter or a 6 volt starter both fit in the same car?

Thanks again.

What markings are there on the starter?

Here's a pic of my 6v if it helps

Thanks James, I'll have a good look when I get back in the garage and compare.

I found this this morning that might be an interesting read for all; http://www.356registry.com/techinfo/rep ... ersion.pdf

Max,

According to many, the 6volt original starter should run okay for a long time whern the car is converted to 12volts but also according to many the solinoid should be changed to 12volt. Otherwise the inrush and holding current can possiblydamage your ignition switch and over time your flywheel teeth.

Cranking speed is faster with 12 volt but not double the speed of 6volt systems.

As far as I am aware there are differences with original 12 volt flywheels as on 912 motors and 356 6volt systems.

A good operational 6volt 356 should actually have a fast cranking speed particulary so when hot. The 6volt system works well when its looked after and I am sure items like the starter motor support bush failures on 356 cars led many to think ( like me!!!!) the 6v system was usless. I presume though you have the normal good ( and much better)12 volt lighting.

If your starter motor is 6 volt and with a 12 volt solinoid it might be necessary to check that bush and ignition switch. I did ask before have you had slow cranking for a period of time?? Did you check the brushes in the starter motor. If its a once only problem maybe its an internal probelm in the starter motor.

When you tried to start the car and it seemed to drain the battery did you see if the headlights also dimmed down if they were turned on?

If you real problems getting anywhere on this you should contact possibly someone like Paul Smith at PRServices in Essex who will no doubt be able to help if you can get the car there!!

Roy

roy mawbey wrote:Max,

According to many, the 6volt original starter should run okay for a long time whern the car is converted to 12volts but also according to many the solinoid should be changed to 12volt. Otherwise the inrush and holding current can possiblydamage your ignition switch and over time your flywheel teeth.

Cranking speed is faster with 12 volt but not double the speed of 6volt systems.

As far as I am aware there are differences with original 12 volt flywheels as on 912 motors and 356 6volt systems.

A good operational 6volt 356 should actually have a fast cranking speed particulary so when hot. The 6volt system works well when its looked after and I am sure items like the starter motor support bush failures on 356 cars led many to think ( like me!!!!) the 6v system was usless. I presume though you have the normal good ( and much better)12 volt lighting.

If your starter motor is 6 volt and with a 12 volt solinoid it might be necessary to check that bush and ignition switch. I did ask before have you had slow cranking for a period of time?? Did you check the brushes in the starter motor. If its a once only problem maybe its an internal probelm in the starter motor.

When you tried to start the car and it seemed to drain the battery did you see if the headlights also dimmed down if they were turned on?

If you real problems getting anywhere on this you should contact possibly someone like Paul Smith at PRServices in Essex who will no doubt be able to help if you can get the car there!!

Roy

Thanks again Roy!!
No, as long as the battery was charged up ok she'd crank over fine, I haven't checkd the brushes yet but will get on to it tomorrow when I'm back in the garage, I didn't try cranking with the headlights on but did try with the radio and windscreen wipers on and they just ground to a halt even with the jump leads on from another car which I thought was odd do you think that this indicates it could possibly be the ignition switch?
Thanks again.

Have you changed the bronze phosphor bush that supports the un supported end of the armature? If you haven't, I would.

I have them in stock at KK and can send you one if you want, and I'm at work tomorrow (Sunday), if you need any other advice give me a call 01702 601155

Hi Max,

Thanks for that reply. K88FER is correct in saying that apart from the starter motor output shaft bushing thats in the transmission bell housing there is another bushing inside the starter motor as I mentioned to you before. This is often changed at the same time.
However, for the system to come to grinding halt with a fully charged battery ( when you jumped it ) and the ancillary electrical items to stop makes me wonder if the battery you used to jump it was firmly connected?

You say now when the battery has been charged it spins over fine. If the ignition switch contacts were badly burnt or pitted then a newly charged battery might not have helped, likewise the bushings if they are worn badly the problem is there all the time good battery or not.

If your battery on the "C" is on the old side? it just could be a cell going down and might be ready to fail again even after a charge. By jumping a good battery onto a defective one might not have been the best procedure anyway.

If your battery is around 4-5 years old and the "C" is not used that often it might just be a new battery is required.

There are a number of comments regarding the failure of ignition switches on the 356 registry site. Mine is 50 years old maybe I have been lucky. Let us know how you get on!! ( It would seem though a 12v solinoid should be mounted on a 6v starter motor if your car is converted to run on 12V.)

Roy

roy mawbey wrote: K88FER is correct in saying that apart from the starter motor output shaft bushing thats in the transmission bell housing there is another bushing inside the starter motor as I mentioned to you before. This is often changed at the same time.

Ah, you had already mentioned the bush in the bell housing.... that was the one I was refering to.

My first camper was 6 volt and sometimes wouldn't start, it was as if I had a flat battery, just got a click.... it was all down to the bush, changed it and all was fine, battery was good all along!!

Hi Mr Steiner
the voltage should be marked on the starter but it will almost certainly be 6v , they can cope fine with 12v but do tend to slam in so a 12v solenoid would be a good idea or Al Zim does a relay to cushion engagement , you could also install a relay to take the load off the ignition switch during starting again Zim does a kit or find yourself a good quality relay and do it yourself , as for you present problem make sure its not your battery by getting it drop tested , some motor spares shops have a drop tester, and your earth's are all good , I had a guy who I went out to to get his car going only to discover the earth lead in the fromt compartment glowing where it bolts to the floor as it had a rusty six mm bolt securing it , the bush could be a candidate but it would be a progressive thing , if it needs replacing I would remove the motor rather than struggling although it can be done with the engine in situ, lasty if your unlucky it may be the battery cable from the front to the rear has corroded internally ,I have come across this a couple of times and the only answer is to replace it , a pain in the bum but not a disaster , oh and the starter cannot really be tested without the end of its shaft being supported properly as in a gearbox etc
yours Bill

Hello everyone.

Firstly thanks to all who have given advice and ideas, she now starts!!

The problem seems to be bad earthing and ignition problems, the bad earths would make the starter spin slower(as if the battery was flat which is why there was no improvement when I used jump leads from another car!) and the poor spark wasn't enough to fire her up, I recharged the battery, bought a new battery earth lead and cleaned all earthing points(again!), new HT leads, points, plugs etc etc, then first turn of the key and she fired up immediately!!

Thanks again, I now have a problem with the gears!