DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Hi all, I am new to this site, having emigrated from the pistonheads exige forum as my beast is sold. Not all bad though, i got rid of it because I crave a car with more character and something that can be driven closer to its limits without breaking every speeding law in the world. So I think I am in the market for a 1973 911 T or E. Could you guys point me toward the pros and cons of each and a few tips as to what I should be looking for when I view one. I would intend to have it looked over by a professional before buying but do not want to waste peoples time by turning up not knowing my backside from my elbow. Cheers for your help in advance.
Ed

Hi Ed, and welcome to the forum!

I'll let someone else come up with the pro's and con's of each, other than to say that I've had a 2.4T and loved it. I've now got a 2.4E for restoration, but have yet to drive it . Happy to give some general buying tips though ....

I'm no expert, but I suppose the first thing to do is narrow down a bit further what you are aiming for:

Right hand drive? Harder to find, carry a premium (30-40% I would think), may be rustier (even rustier ) than a good lefty.

LHD: Easier to find on the market, less expensive and insurance no problem, so don't worry about that.

Matching numbers (engine to chassis)? Nice if you find one, but over here we don't seem to mind non-matching cars. Or to put it another way, probably better to buy a good non-matching car, than a poor matching one.

Colour? Early Seventies 911's do well in the bright 'safety' colours, so you're pretty safe with most of them, so it's whatever you fancy really. I can't think of any really 'doom' colours, I guess because the car's shape is so perfect.

After the above it's going to come down to the car having the correct bits on it, and above all, body condition. It's nothing to put £10K into a body that looked quite good to start with. For originality the Dr Johnson book on the early 911's is perfect, sorry I can't remember it's name, as mine has gone.

So what to look for: all the usual classic car stuff: evidence of rebuilds / maintainence / servicing etc. Use the many books to check that you've got the correct bits.

The gearbox type (915: 1st left and foward, reverse right and back) should be correct (usually is) Check the engine number matches the type (i.e. make sure you're 2.4E engine isn't really a 2.2T): you can ask for info here, as many of us can cross reference numbers.

Like I say the main thing is bodywork. All the usual, poor paint, poor panel shutlines, bubbling around the bottom corners of the front and rear screen. Then there are the miriad 911 places. Front to back includes:

1) Under the car, look on the part that carries the towing eye: this forms part of the front suspension mounting as it works rearwards: check all around here, plus the matching part in the boot (spare wheel out, carpet up). Follow this panel right around where the suspension mounts on, and be firm with it: give it a good prod as it's easy to hide rust here.

2) Under the front wings put your hand up and feel the very top of the inner wing almost in line with the wheel: mud tends to collect all along here and rust the whole top of the inner wing.

3) Almost straight down from here you will see the bottom of the front inner wing 'hoops' over the track rods / steering. Check fore and aft of this area for kinks: shows front end damage. Also at the rear of the front inner wings, where there is the vertical front wing closing panel check around the base of the inner wings. This is the junction between the front inner wing, the wing closing panel, the outer sill, and within the structure, the inner sill. Invariably there's rust or repairs around here generally.

4) Outer sills (of course), don't forget the very, very bottom: what you are actually looking at here is the base of the 'middle' sill: it often goes right at the bootom. Also look just behind the jacking point.

5) Whilst in the area, inside the rear wings, right tucked at the front are the 'kidney bowls'. These often look O.K., but you need to try to feel around the front of them: there's not much space. Mud gets trapped here, and rots them out. Later the inner wing rots as well, letting water into the sill structure. Also follow the inner wing right down in the front foot or so, where it joins the sills / floor: often the flat, horizontal part goes.

6) Open the door and look at the B-post: look for bubbling around the bottom five inches or so, around the latch and around the engine compartment release.

7) Rear inner wings again, towards the rear they curve inwards: like the front they trap mud here and rot. Worth looking inside of the engine bay, right tight at the top, where the bay / inner wing curves up to meet the outer wing. Also on the N/S check along the whole route of the engine bay release tube. It follows the inner wing so closely that it (again) traps mud and help the middle of the inner wing to rot.

8 ) On the outside of the rear wings, have a look around the rear of the rear windows rearwards: look for bubbling as the factory stops up a hole with bitumen here, and sometimes it rots. Also look along the bottom of the rear window: lots of cars have gone here before.

Forgot to say, front wings go just about everywhere, but especially the bottom six inches at the rear, and around the base of the headlight.

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but if the car is what you wanted, matches with the books, has evidence of appropriate work, and the above bodywork checks look O.K. then it's probably worth paying for an inspection.

It's always worth posting on the forum to see if someone's near you to check a car out ....

Hope that helps, and good luck with your search: I'm going to warm up my coffeee

P.S. Re-reading the above it sounds a nightmare: don't worry though, just as long as you do your homework, look at plenty of cars and finally get one professionally checked, you should be fine. Early 911's are steadily creeping up in value, once sorted are reliable, and are a joy to drive. Both the 'T' and 'E' are very usable even in traffic, and are also easily capable of keeping you in comfort over long distances.

Hi Ed,

suggest you visit Nick moss @ http://www.early911.co.uk he'll point you in the right direction

Good stuff Barry - Ed I would say go and look at plenty of cars so you get a feel for what is good and bad...remember the cars are 30+ years old, very few will be original and it comes down to horses for courses.

Also look for oil leaks - check how long the car has been parked in the spot you view it in. They can be spectacularly expensive to sort. All of them leak - it's the nature of an air cooled engine, anything more than a couple of drops can suggest a problem...but again isn't the end of the world as long as you go into the deal with the knowledge at hand. Oh yeah and blue smoke under hard revs when the engine is warm....which will take 15 miles + so take it for a bloody good run.

But most of all have fun looking.....and post piccies here when you've bought one (there are a few good cars for sale on here BTW)

Oooh and of course come to the Fairmile in Cobham the 3rd Weds of the month where you'll find a gaggle of kindly DDKers whom will welcome you and show you their cars and the pit fall areas Barry has described

But not this month as we'll be in the Orange Tree in Richmond for the annual Seasonal Sprirt Sampling session which of course you are very welcome to join. Don't expect to see any cars that evening tho - but I'm sure there'll be lots of Porsche chat

Welcome !

Your budget is all-important to advising you:

If you have , say up to 15K, you are buying a driver, and getting an MOT is more impoertant than cosmetics or long-term value

15-30K is the sort of territory where you will find your self if you are looking for something well restored, which will last a few years at least.

Here the quality of resto is all-important..bare metal pictures are essential.

30K plus is an really really good resto, full mech rebuild etc..

If you have the idea of buying a good, original rustfree and unmolested car needing nothing...good luck!

these are now 35 years old, and I'd say that anything like that is outside my experience.

Plenty of cars about making that claim ..they will invariably have had partial repairs, often well-concealed, but nothing less than total total baremetal fully stripped resto makes sense now..all IMHO of course..

If you have the time, buying a car to restore is now becoming more nearly viable..which was not the case before the values shot up..

That way you will have a totally known quantity from day 1..

If long-term value is not an issue, a nice backdate is unbeatable for the money..

Kind regards
David

Well done Barry, I couldn't have put it better myself, but a couple of pictures may clarify your words

Under the front wings put your hand up and feel the very top of the inner wing almost in line with the wheel..... also at the rear of the front inner wings, where there is the vertical front wing closing panel check around the base of the inner wings. This is the junction between the front inner wing, the wing closing panel, the outer sill, and within the structure, the inner sill. Invariably there's rust or repairs around here generally

The wing joining plate has already been removed on this car but the corrosion on the inner wing can be cearly seen

inside the rear wings, right tucked at the front are the 'kidney bowls'

Here the bottom of the B pillar or door shut has been cut away to show the front of the kidney bowls

Under the car, look on the part that carries the towing eye: this forms part of the front suspension mounting as it works rearwards: check all around here, plus the matching part in the boot (spare wheel out, carpet up). Follow this panel right around where the suspension mounts on, and be firm with it: give it a good prod as it's easy to hide rust here

Rear inner wings again, towards the rear they curve inwards: like the front they trap mud here and rot. Also on the N/S check along the whole route of the engine bay release tube. It follows the inner wing so closely that it (again) traps mud and help the middle of the inner wing to rot.

Worth looking inside of the engine bay, right tight at the top, where the bay / inner wing curves up to meet the outer wing.

Peter Morgan "Original Porsche 911" is a good book that covers all the models and the their differences. When looking at a car check the VIN and engines numbers in Paternie's "Porsche 911 Red Book"

Nice one Barry, that was a great post.

Ed, my only advice is unless you are doing any resto work yourself, buy the best you can afford.

Are you after a coupe or targa, RHD or LHD? They are probably two questions which will help focus your search. Then go and drive a 2.4T and 2.4E I am sure there are people on this forum that will help.

Thanks

Alan

Thanks Gents, that's a huge help. I am going to check a '71 T out this weekend so will take a print out of this advice. Apparently the passenger sill is going (sounds ominuous) but it should at least serve as a datapoint as it'll be the first I've seen.

I am looking to spend around 15k in the first instance on a car that has had much of the rust and body work put right. I'd be happy to sink more money into the purchase in order to get the engine, breaks and suspension up to scratch if required. If you come across any good examples where the body is relatively sound but needs more attention to the items above then I'd love to hear about it. I am not wedded to either a LHD or RHD.

I'll keep you posted as to how the search goes but in the meantime if you know of any good examples in the 15k region i'd love to hear about them. I am based in London so preferably a car from the southern England.

Thanks again,
Ed

edwardo wrote:Thanks Gents, that's a huge help. I am going to check a '71 T out this weekend so will take a print out of this advice. Apparently the passenger sill is going (sounds ominuous) but it should at least serve as a datapoint as it'll be the first I've seen.

I am looking to spend around 15k in the first instance on a car that has had much of the rust and body work put right. I'd be happy to sink more money into the purchase in order to get the engine, breaks and suspension up to scratch if required. If you come across any good examples where the body is relatively sound but needs more attention to the items above then I'd love to hear about it. I am not wedded to either a LHD or RHD.

I'll keep you posted as to how the search goes but in the meantime if you know of any good examples in the 15k region i'd love to hear about them. I am based in London so preferably a car from the southern England.

Thanks again,
Ed

for a budget of £15K you should be able to get yourself a really good 911T...good luck with the hunt, let us know how your getting on

Ed

From the pictures you sent me I would say that minimum it needs O/S door latch panel, outer sill and kidney bowl. The chances are the inner sill has gone, along with the jack tube and support. The car is a non original colour so may be difficult to get a paint match. Budget around £15o0 for that work. Also need carpets.

Good luck Ed, nice pictures Nick. They should certainly cure anyone of wanting an early 911 now .

BTW, yes I did forget the rear parcel shelf area (last photo) .

Thanks Nick, I appreciate you looking at those pics. Cheers Barry also. I'll keep you posted. These 911's are a bit addictive so hopefully I'll be driving one soon.

They should certainly cure anyone of wanting an early 911 now

Hmm, you could be right so here are some to make you want one again

NO advice - just welcome to the forum and good luck - make sure you keep us posted with your progress

Cheers

Mark