DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

agreed! it looks muhc more like "a proper car" now

Thanks Tom. yes it looks balanced doesn't it? The tail was always too short in previous iterations but because we were also breaking a bunch of design rules, we couldn't lengthen it without it looking broken backed. Now it seems to work. And more importantly, the roof doesn't dominate like it used to, thank goodness. Suddenly that too looks to be in proportion with everything else. Thanks to Al (Pandora) it looks like we're on the right track!

The 3rd pic does look particularly good (if I do say so myself)

Barry, you must be a whizz with Ikea shelves! (middle stantion needs a whack with a mallet though ;0) )

Al

I wonder, is it posible that any of the more technically adept members who can use computer giggery- pokery can 'skin' these pics, just to get a smooth uniform surface over the frame?

I just realised this makes me sound as old as Steve's reference to me in print recenly as a 'retired designer'. I wish I was retired! I'm not 40 'till next March! so technically I'm a failed designer, and the above ludite tendences, I suspect, prove why!

:0)

Al

Bootsy wrote:I think you've nailed it there - suddenly the proportions just seem to work.

Yes, the pics don't do it justice really (funny how you can place the camera at exactly the same place as your eye, and the image just won't come out as you expect), and in the flesh it does look very much better.

As Steve said, all of a sudden the roof 'issue' has disappeared, and the back end has a general feel of being very close indeed. We'll get some foam in some of the tricky-to-station areas next, just to try out some ideas of how to get various shapes to work together, plus get that rear panel into MDF (Al's drawn it, I just need to cut it ). Anyway, muchos action coming up after mid-month .

Seems that some bloke with a funny Italian car has been watching our progress and decided to have a go too.......

http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazin ... wsletter44

It's not baaad, I s'pose. with a bit of work it could look nearly as good as the Okrasa.

Al

If we even get a tenth of the way to producing half as pretty, balanced and aggressive a car I'll be thrilled

A bit of a milestone although no work actually done on the Okrasa Special this time. Barry's workshop was up and ready to accept another vehicle.... It felt slightly odd it leaving the workshop as it's been an almost permanent fixture in my workshop since I finished restoring it and moved everything in:





I also took the chance at Silverstone to take a couple of pictures of Rainer's Porsche 910 for inspiration. I just love the rear end, especially the wing and Kamm tail treatment. Even though the car is late 1960's the design concepts were fairly common on Cooper's, Lotus, etc. I sense that the whole rear of the assembly we've built needs to be raised so the rear wing is higher up than the fronts, but it will be good to see progress accelerate now the car is at Barry's place:

.

I thought I would share an email conversation unedited on DDK that highlights some of the challenges that exist in designing a car. Thank goodness for Barry and Al is all I can say, to keep me in check, but I suspect my thinking and aspiration would be pretty common. It's also hilarious prose, especially from Al which I think will really make people chuckle. Barry and Al were okay with me sharing this BTW....

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Hey. Al in case you had missed the post on DDK I moved the Special up to Barry's new workshop last weekend, so am hoping the car will be finished at the end of the month given its convenience for Barry now

On a more serious note I spent a bit of time looking afresh at the design and think we need to tweak it. I know we need to conclude what we currently doing but I can't help feeling we're going to be satisfied that it's better than it was (especially in resolving the roof dominance) but something is still nagging about 3 aspects for me:
1. The length of the rear wing needs to be extended aka Porsche 910, Lotus 23, Cooper Monaco. All three are mid engined and have the front half of the wing extend well forward into the quarter panel, with a ruddy big hole for the air inlet. I know it might cause issues with the quarter window but we can solve that.

2. It would then force us to raise the height of the wing itself, which I think is still too low, ie it needs the top of the wing to be much higher than the front, to give a visual sense of aggression to the car

3. The lower part of the rear wing behind the wheel looks too low. I think the station section running front to back needs to be radically trimmed to give less weight to it.

I'll send through a couple of photos to accompany these thoughts.

Cheers
Steve

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On 11 Jun 2013, at 09:39, alastair brown wrote:

Hi Steve,

eh, not quite sure I agree.......

I know the 910 is a real favourite, and I know why, it's a great looking thing. The problem is that from the rear it is far wider than the Okrasa - wheels gained about 1" per year in the intervening period. That said, I have tried to accomodate as much of the rear of the 910 in the current design as fits the roof (and the period)

I know it is a bit of a leap of faith, but the current design is probably much closer than you think - remember what a difference a single mm or two makes to a line - well in 3D it is just the same - the sheet test gives a bit of the picture, but the volume of the panel is in the surface. This volume will come with the foam, and I promise, it'll look balanced, and the proportions will be right for the age of the car.

Think of it like Kelly Brook (ahhhhh, and breath........) if you saw her skeleton (as the buck is now) you might think she needed more hips, a bit of a tweek here, or there etc, you could spend forever fine tuning something which doesn't exist yet. Now, imagine Victoria Beckham / Angelina Jolie - that's your sheet test - it's far better, but you can see the ribs sticking out so the shape doesn't flow, but you get an idea....... Now, the foam will give us 'the full Kelly'. that extra bit of shape and form makes all the difference!

Of course, there will be elements of the design which will change and evolve as we build the shape on the buck - the curve of the wing at the C pillar as previously discussed, will be developed 'in the round' on the car. If you want to look at a vent feature in the wing, that can be accomodated within the current buck, though I think the 906-910 style is going to jar in the scale of the car without massively wider wheels / wings to give the volume into which to sculpt the opening, and as you say, the area by the C pillar is already tricky.

BUT...... all of this can be resolved while actually carving the shape, but to do that we need to start from a fixed point, build a shape, tweek it and refine it - remember, car design took years to go from the 550 to the 910, with a lot of steps in between. The Okrasa is about the mid point. To do the car justice we need to control how far we take it.

If you start thinking about changing the 'skeleton' before seeing the true shape, you risk being back to where you were with the wire, with an endless quest for something that works. To make real progress at this stage we really need to get the bulk into an actual car shape and THEN start making changes. If we do them now, we'll never keep moving forward.

Innevitably, the current stantions will not be the final shape - (I'm quite good, but not THAT good!) but they will give a good basis to build on. If forms need changed or even lifted or moved etc, doing that once they have the foam in will make it easier to see how such changes work.

I think we can make good progress quite quickly from where we are at the moment, and having the rear panel on will make a big difference, as will lights etc. Once we have a better idea of where we are, with the kamm tail in place etc, you'll see how close parts are to the 910 whilst incorporating the roof. Once we have looked at that, that is the time to look at the inlets etc, and remember, as much of the re-shaping for such a vent is actually in the door as it is in the upper leading edge of the rear wing. Yes the rear wing looks high, but that's 'cause the door is very low, relative to both wing tops

You are right about the lower part of the rear wing - it is yet to be trimmed at the bottom as part of the tail work still to be done, so yes, it will loose some of that 'weight'. The current shape was just done quickly when I was down, but was revised in the sections I sent down to Barry to tie in with the new rear panel profile.

I think you, like me, need to buy a 910 relica as well, so you can scratch that itch!!!

Barry, any thoughts?

Al

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On 11 Jun 2013, at 10:42, Barry Carter wrote:

My thought? Agree with Al 100%: we started wanting to create something along the lines of the original rendering, and particularly embraced the aggressive short-tail, nose forward hill-climber aesthetic, as far as we could make work.

It's your car Steve, but I think it's far too early to dismiss the recent progress IMO. It'll never be a 910: the roof dictates that. As Al said, perhaps it would be better mull over a suitable 910 donor project, so the Okrasa can stay true to it's period (albeit forward looking as we know David would have been doing), and a future 910 could be done true it's own period.

For all that, of course there'll be tweaks along the way, and I expect that, but a shift in the basic principle of the design is another matter at this stage. Frankly I'm not sure much more body with that (lovely) little engine sits right: I've always taken the view that we're coming from 550's (albeit with early, possibly mid, '60's bodywork) and the like, rather than the bigger, and enormously more powerful later cars.

Just my thoughts laid out: take them as you will: no offence intended, just where I'm at.

Cheers chaps!

B.

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On 11 Jun 2013, at 15:06, Steve Wright wrote:

All great thoughts gentlemen and absolutely spot on. You've called me out which is absolutely right. Irrespective of it being my car we have to do what's right from a design perspective and period-correct. There are too many retro inspired designs based on more modern thinking that simply don't work, so I shouldn't make that mistake. I obviously need to go find a suitable chassis or donor and make the next one 910 inspired, as I will never have the cash to own an original.

Cheers Steve

Nice conversation and just what you need

Interesting thread. Very difficult job adding the bottom part to the existing roof. I found some pics of the 'ghia aigle ' managed to upload one photo to photobucket but is that website difficult! I think the new format almost has me beaten.

I attach the one photo I have managed to do and its only sent because of the back of the car. Not that I want you to change yours Steve. Its just how they were trying to do something similar on a 356 way back when.. The other photos are side on and maybe I can find the best of uploading soon.

Much more than realise doing a job like that.



Looks like 2 photos?? Still maybe something comes out?

Roy

Here you go, Roy...

I should perhaps add to the above that I did ring Steve afterwards to say I felt a bit bad about apparently saying "no, not going to let you do that to your own car!"

Luckily, Steve has thick skin, and took my (and Barry's) reluctance in the spirit it was intended - I could have become a sacked ex-designer!

The above email was a longer more considered version of my original response, which in the spirit of open-ness and humour, I will also share here......

"Oi, Steve, stop trying to nail tits on a fish! it neither needs them, or looks better for it"

Phew, just as well I didn't send that.......



Al

Keith,

You are wizard Thank you saved me an hour or two!!!

cheers

Roy