Wot, not another '79 Targa resto thread

[PeterK]

Let’s start with the better news, then get more depressed as we progress. The replacement door handle has arrived and been fitted – well sort-of. I removed the latch pull / opening part from the replacement handle and fitted it to my original door pull handle. I even took the little white dot off my original and transferred it across. Looks like it was always there now.


I have arranged for a ‘man’ to come and gas my ClassicRetrofit aircon. I’m getting the system nitrogen pressure tested to check for any major leaks, before filling (hopefully) with refrigerant gas (R134a). I messaged the guy on his website without reply, so I called him. The concept of a home-installed, non-original, electric aircon in an old 911 certainly had him spooked. He was worried about where my evaporator was (replacement air blower unit), where the condenser was (front RHS wheel well) and where the fill ports were (just below the fuse box). He was majorly panicing about most things, but I’ve talked him off the ledge and he’s booked and (hopefully) coming - on April Fools’ Day !


In the less good news, but not a show-stopper section ..... just rather a lot of going backwards before we can go forwards….. I adjusted the side windows (from about 10mm too low) and they are close, but not perfect (maybe 1mm too low in the middle). The side seals of the targa roof are bowed, whereas the replacements are straight, so that will help. A complete roof refurb will follow getting everything else lined up – too big a risk in changing everything at the same time, so door and over-screen seals first, then adjust windows, then refurb roof and probably tweak windows again.

While playing with the seating of the targa top as part of the side window adjustments, I realised that while the overall fit was good, the FNS corner was maybe a little proud (too high). BTW, I have the Dan Petchel front seal – apparently the current Porsche supply is too tall and needs cutting down. Anyway, there’s a small tab / flap of metal / sticky out bit on the rear edge of the top of the A-pillars that supports the seal in the top front corner, and the NS appeared different (more bent up) compared with the OS. So how do you access that – simple, you just remove the trim metalwork then the seal. Easy-peasy. What’s takes a while is then cleaning all of the dried glue off the seal and the channel. About 5 hours if you’re interested. Having 'adjusted' the flap bit and refitted the seal dry, I rechecked the roof fit and it is much better now. Result.


A key part of the targa roof height at the front is how far back the roof settles (allowing the front to ‘drop in’). This seems fine, but having glued the rear seal in place a while back, I realised that the seal is meant to be glued to the targa cover (the stainless or black trademark of the targa cars), not the main structure underneath. It’s a cruel way to learn about the order in which your car is supposed to be rebuilt, but hey ho. With a lot of patience, I had un-glued the seal from the main structure and the targa cover does fit in place.

Anyway, the targa cover needs to be off while the rear screen is being fitted, so in the meantime, in a moment of madness, I thought that I might as well remove the rear targa seal completely, and enjoy a further few days removing dried glue. While we’re on the topic of seals, the replacement door seals are a different (allegedly better) design than the flap type original to the ’79 cars. Unfortunately, the driver’s door needs a firm shut to align and the passenger door is about 3-5mm proud when shut. I’m scared that I might pull out the door seals to ‘tweak’ and have yet more dried glue to clean off.


Finally, in the bad news section, I think my windscreen fitter has run away. Having not heard a proposed date from him after a few weeks, I’ve emailed him without response. Do you know anyone good at installing 964 front screens and targa rears ?.
I’ve ordered a length of paracord – don’t let Alex, the Garage Bitch know, but he may be learning to instal a targa screen in the future. In reading around the topic, I realised that the internal targa hoop trim and side panels will need to come out again to fit the rear screen. Bit obvious when you look at it.


Sorry, just realised that there are no photos in this update. I'll try harder next time.

[rich73]

Hi Peter,
I hadn't heard of nitrogen testing of A/C systems before. I used work on an aircraft cooling system a few years ago and we used to connect a pump via a Standard manifold gauge set and pump to the system down to a vacuum and check that the vacuum was held for a given amount of time. This was our leak test and as the system needs to be in a vacuum anyway before filling cost nothing other than time, I presume for the A/C fitter its the saving time that's the benefit of Nitrogen. I would check with classic retrofit what Nitrogen pressure they recommend testing to just to be safe.
Will be great to hear how you get on with the system, I'm really interested in it.

I've only done a 911 standard screen before and it went in easily with para cord, push from the outside whilst pulling the cord. Not sure if a 964 screen is more difficult.

[PeterK]

Hi Rich
The best leak test is to fill the system with refrigerant and see if it is still working in a couple of years

I'm no expert, but for me, pulling a vacuum is more about extracting moisture and maximising refrigerant fill. Intuitively, I expect that a vacuum will pull rubber pipes more tightly onto the connectors, whereas the system works under pressure, encouraging the pipes off them. Pressurising with nitrogen should find any major leaks before the refrigerant is added. Is that me being environmentally conscious or am I just too tight to waste the gas ?



The screen surround on a 964 is slightly larger than on an older 911, so ensuring that the rubber is pushed properly onto the car, then sealing or adding a packing piece between the outer edge of the glass and the seal is key. I'm less worried by the front, just not looking forward to the fight with the targa rear. It looks like it needs to go forwards before going down and simultaneously it needs to go down before it goes forwards

[deano]

Great update Peter - its a tricky puzzle, the whole Targa seals and roof fitment / window frame / glass adjustment trdaeoff, which I have been slowly working through recently....

I'm still not sure whether I have the correct front seal, but whatever the case, it is certainly doing its upmost to push the outside edges of the roof, and the window frame tops, out of perfect position - perhaps the rubber has hardened over time???

Thankfully my rear seal is not giving me any trouble, but needs cosmetic improvement mainly to the fabric that the glass slides up. The rubber cleaned up nicely with soap and water, and I pryed off the old worn fabric. I have purchased some 8mm wide black book-binding tape to replace the original fabric. The new tape should be pretty robust in theory, and a test piece suggests that it looks reasonably genuine and its own adhesive sticks reasonably well to the rubber.

I have two different sets of original Porsche side seals, one new and one old but good from another DDK member. The newer ones are really oversized at the two ends and simply don't work (front pushes roof too high and rears do not fit comfortably within the rear seal "step". The older original type fit much better but look a bit sad so I am considering cutting and re-bonding the new ones to (hopefully) replicate the original shape and size.

I had to re-position the side seal mounting holes to get a good alignment compromise between the window frame and glass, although the lovely chap at a well-known Targa roof and trim shop assures me that I shouldnt need to reposition those holes and most likely the front seal is not seated properly. Having removed the front seal, and noting the same hard glue residue, I cannot see how it can fit any better. My plan now is to carefully trim rubber from the back of the top corners of this front seal, to hopefully lower it a few mm, and go from there....

My new OEM rear Targa glass seal is fitted to the glass, ready for me to solo-attempt its future re-installation using the rope and strap-down method

Oh, and I've also restored and rebuilt my folding room from scratch, including replacing the latch pins with the Stoddard parts. Can't finish until the seals are fully sorted. I would say that this is all reasonably DIY as long as the original front and rear webbing is still in one piece (holds the position of everything, front and back). Mine wasn't so its been a bit more tricky... My wife bought me a mohair outer skin, so I'm obliged to use it and hope it fits !

Good luck!

[The Garage Bitch]

Ahem

[jb]

With regard to the roof fitting and the side seals.
Many years ago I bought new seals and having looked at few roofs that fitted ok I cut and filed off a chunk at the front of the side seals until the front part of the roof dropped to the level of the screen surround and the angle matched that seal.
This may not be the way the factory does it but it fits properly and doesn't leak or create a lot of wind noise.
However Garry on here (http://classicfx.net) is probably the person to consult if you are unwilling to butcher your seals.

This is not a great picture of that area but you can probably get the idea.

[PeterK]

Thanks all - great input (but still scary )

[Jonny Hart]

Nitrogen pressure testing (150 PSI, hold for 20 mins) is quicker in the long run if you have a pinched o-ring of other kind of leak. It’s harmless and the sound of rushing gas will immediately locate the leak.

Vacuum testing often sucks in split o-rings causing a temporary seal giving a false sense of confidence that the system is leak free. Vacuum is the complete opposite to the normal working parameters of the system. You wouldn’t test for a puncture using vacuum now would you?

All decent AC places should know this.

[PeterK]

Decided to have a play with targa screen. You may have seen my other post on this – I am struggling. Well, in truth I’m not struggling at the moment, as I left it alone and have got on with some other things. I spent three days (a day being 2 – 3 hours each) trying just to get the seal onto the screen. Having got the seal partially on on day 1, day 2 saw it fall off and day 3 saw it partially back on again.


There’s a slot for the trim and then a slot that is internally sub-split into two. The screen goes in the top half of that and the HRW wire goes in the lower part. The screen really wants to go in the wrong part, and in the process, also really wants to rip off the wire that joins the two halves of the earth side.


In better news, Jonny’s suggestion about the HRW connector coming apart was spot on.

So the wires have been pulled out of the car now, ready to be slipped into the seal. Well, they will be if I can ever get the seal on the screen. I've labelled the masking tape to ensure I put the wires back in the correct holes later. That of course assumes that the masking tape label doesn't fall off in the meantime.



We had a couple of warm days, so I etch primed the targa bar


The etch primer dried really smoothly. I perused the interweb that evening to see how long I should allow it to dry and how long the over-coating window is – basically, when and how long is the window that I have to put a top coat on, before needing to sand the primer. Well, it turns out 15 minutes is too late. Really the top-coat should be applied to almost wet primer. Oh, and the interweb also said that the etch primer is really hard to sand. Doh.

So, next day I scuffed the (hard to scuff) primer and put 3 coats of satin black on.
[

I also did the headlight vanity rings, an engine bay light unit and one of the end caps from the side skirts. Quite why I ended up with 3 black and 1 white before, I’ve no idea, but now I have 4 black end caps.

Next day saw the white top-coat coming out. I now have mirrors, torsion bar covers and a petrol flap all in the correct shade of white.

Each night (overnight) I had kept the paint for the following day in front of the Aga, so it was nicely warmed & ready for spraying. I was expecting more grief from SWMBO for this, but escaped relatively unscathed.


I fitted the petrol flap but then noticed a run right on the end. Out with the paint file, then 1500, 2500 and 300 grit, some cutting compound and you'd never know I had messed up.



I mentioned the plan for the aircon man came to play, and he did turn up (unlike the windscreen man who has still not come back into comms). We had a chat about the system (for his information and satisfying himself that it was worth the effort of getting kit out of his van) and then his first task was pressuring with nitrogen. The system held 10 bar for 30 minutes without any loss - he was impressed. He did pass comment that the fittings were not standard for aircon systems. I mentioned that they were from a company called Burgaflex, well known in aircon circles. He used Burgaflex and had a catalogue in his van. He had a look and lo and behold, the catalogue featured the fittings. As he said - now he knows.

Then he emptied the nitrogen, pulled a vacuum and added the R134a refrigerant. I don’t have an engine, so no alternator but just on battery power (with my charger connected) the system pulled nicely. When the vent temperature got below -6’C, I stopped and had a cup of tea.




Looking for other distractions to keep me away from the targa screen, I attacked the petrol tank. SWMBO also had me jet washing and treating the patio slabs and around the pool ahead of the family coming for a socially distanced birthday (hers), but that’s not car related, so I’ll gloss over it.

At first glance, the tank didn’t look too bad.
Tank ready for stripping by Peter Kenaghan, on Flickr

On closer inspection, there was a lot of flaking coating on the topsides & when I threatened it with a scraper, it just fell off



The underneath was more rusty, but thankfully, just surface rust.


A hot air gun and scraper saw most of the coating removed (took 2 days to do it though)


Followed by wire brushing



Then Phoskleen B rust conversion / passivation





I’ll epoxy prime it all then underseal just the lower half, but will wait for warmer weather. So where do I keep the tank in the meantime ??. I know a special place that’s just the right shape


I needed to unbolt the aircon compressor and the battery to just push them out of the way. Neither was disconnected, although I did switch off the battery isolator.


I couldn’t get the tank to sit fully home, then noticed that my additional relays might be getting in the way



So tank out, relocate relays and tank now fits as it should




I looked at fitting the mirrors, then realised that as my car didn’t have an electric passenger mirror, the door didn’t have any hole for the cables. Shame that I didn’t notice that before I painted it. Never mind, out with the drill and a hole quickly appeared. Protective primer added and now being left to dry overnight.

[deano]

Brilliant !

I am wondering which part is the most difficult and time-consuming - putting the seal on the glass, or fitting the glass/seal to the car.

I decided to test-run the fitting of my seal to the glass, a few weeks ago, but after a few hours only managed to get it half on and gave up. Perhaps, washing up liquid wasn't the best choice of lubricant. I thought that, if I left it a few days, the washing up liquid would dry up and the seal would stay in place. Not so, at least with this particular brand. Also wishing now that I had moved the wires over from the old seal to the new one.... happy days!

[PeterK]

Back in the garage again ……

Mirrors …. & time to overdose on barely different pictures, just in case someone has an unexplained urge to know what’s inside them ….


Fit base


Pull wires through


Add plug (glad I made a note of the required colours)


Add back


Add motor assembly


Add glass

Repeat on the other side and test. Result.



Ahead of attempting to fit the engine this week, it was time to rearrange the garage a bit - a bit like the old game of solitaire, where you have 8 tiles and 9 spaces. You can only slide one tile at a time, but then have to slowly get your space to a different position.

So, spin car through 45', move pile of crap to a clear space, spin car through the rest of 90' and move so that the cradle is about to leave the garage, move bigger table halfway to new location, move tool chest stack, remove middle section from tool chest stack No.2 and place on chair, move tool chest stack No.2 , move degreasing tank & welders, move pile of crap to different space, move computer to safety, move little table, put larger table in final position, put back computer, move little table to final position, move tool chest stack No. 2 middle section onto smaller table, tidy away the pile of crap, sweep floor, move car back into garage, breath and have a cup of tea. Mustn't forget all the sweeping up as we go.


Bored yet ?. Anyway, finally, it was time to join the engine and gearbox, so from this


Get out engine hoist again, raise engine, lay board on bike lift / pallet truck thingy, lower engine, put away hoist, attach gearbox, starter and throttle linkage … and you get this

You may notice that the board is too long - how am I going to get the gearbox mounting bolts in ????

The eagle-eyed will also notice the trail of kitty litter. This is necessary when you fill the gearbox with oil and walk across the room with your funnel, all without noticing that it is dripping.


There was then a brief pause, playing with this

(Nearly) son in law has bought some race fairings for his trumpet – in Kwaka green ! So that tank has to go Kwaka green. Mr K. – are you busy ???? Oh, and by the way, can it be done by the Bank Holiday weekend please….



While I’m waiting for the paint to arrive, might as well enjoy the rear screen some more. Well, after much use of choice words and lots of washing-up liquid, I bought a hook thingy (upholstery hook / trim hook / whatever – you can see it on the screen below). Hook thingy in conjunction with less naughty words and we have ….


I then took it all off again to fit the wiring, and with a bit more of a clue how to fit the seal, got back to here with even less naughty words



Now I’m fighting with the trim pieces. Surprisingly, I still have (and managed to find) the one middle joiner and two end pieces. Right now though, the trim pieces need more finessing - as I try to press them in now, I can get so far, then one or both ends spring out. Managed to pull off some of the seal and spent too long getting it back on again, so decided to have a cup of tea instead. My reasoned opinion is that if I leave the seal to ‘rest’ and it will be more compliant to my wishes at a later date.


Well, I can dream…..

[The Garage Bitch]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Good to see my pipe insulation sticky tape combo door protector gizmo is still going strong

# necessity is the mother of invention

[PeterK]

A quick, but for me, a momentus update…… ……..

So with garage doors open and coffee drunk in the garden, young Alex, aka the Garage Bitch came to play today (socially distanced of course).

Having woken in the night thinking that I hadn’t checked the clutch release fork engagement when I attached the gearbox, first order of play (well coffee was first, so make that second OoP), was to check. Rookie error, but glad I realised before the engine was installed. So, slip off starter and gearbox, cut hole in baseboard so that I could spin the release arm, reattach gearbox and starter.

Car elevated into the stratosphere, hoping that we could get it high enough not to have to remove the rear valance (that I am almost certainly going to have to remove as I now have a 2 out silencer). Success

Slide engine under


And start to elevate


Had to pause and add more wooden blocks to the lift


In case ‘elf and safety’ are looking in, sirs will notice the lift, trolley jack plus TWO lots of secondary support with axle stands. Well, there has to be a first time that I play safely.



After much huffing, puffing, coffee and trying different things, I give you



Using the cradles under the car was very useful. Initially it meant that I could lift the rear of the car without the chin spoiler hitting the ground. Later we realised that instead of trying to pull and push the engine around under the car, all while on the lift, etc, it was simpler to move the car above the stationary engine.

I’ve still got lots of pipes and wires to connect up, oil system to fill, and to program with ignition curve to suit, but nonetheless, a great day in the overall progress.

I thanked the Garage Bitch in the best way possible, by inviting him to come and help fit the targa screens

[The Garage Bitch]

"I thanked the Garage Bitch in the best way possible, by inviting him to come and help fit the targa screens "

It's the very least you could do and just what I always wanted

[911hillclimber]

Getting very real now.
Good luck for when you turn the key!
Charge the battery!!