DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

KS wrote:And yet more new regulations... There's a lot going on right now.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... safety.pdf

Yes , but that isn’t to do with our classics. It does explain why Porsche, Bmw etc are all having early extended summer production shut downs whilst they get their houses in order

No, but it indicative of a LOT happening right now - and what is of interest to all is the section on post-Brexit, which emphasises future legislation will remain in line with UN directives, and hence the same as that imposed on all EU countries. All those people bleating on about ';when we leave the EU it will all be different' are in for a surprise...

There is a major change proposed that will affect people building kits cars, and that's the matter of emissions testing. It is proposed that all newly-registered kit cars will be required to meet current emissions standards – until now, the requirement has been to meet the standards in force at the time the donor engine was built which, in many cases, effectively meant no emissions testing, only 'visible' smoke would be a fail. The proposed new regs will mean that a new kit car (Speedster rep, Buggy etc) running an old VW engine will be required to meet current emissions regs... That won't be easy:

4.11 We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with the MOT emissions standards
current at the date of registration will be required, despite the use of an older
engine. In other words the current relaxation for emissions according to the age
of the engine will no longer apply.

AND...

4.13 When new vehicles were first required to be fitted with catalytic converters
around 1992 (Euro 1 emissions standard), kit car makers typically used older
engines which were not fitted with catalytic converters, hence the justification for
age-appropriate testing of emissions based on date of engine manufacture or
first use. The majority of the fleet is now vehicles up to 25 years old whose
engines are fitted with catalytic converters, providing plenty of choice to the kit
car builder.

The latter comment completely ignores the widespread use of the VW flat-four engine in a large number of kit vehicles...

Or just written in a language commonly used in the UK?

Interesting!
When I was considering all this legislation I contemplated that the 911 I have (1985 3.2 engine, stock) would have to meet current emissions if I had to face the BIVA test with the car as is.
Today, it is 'visible smoke' as KS says, and I certainly hope that the MoT will stay this way....
It was this thought that I had when I raised a thread on here about fitting CATS to the engine.

I am not convinced this Country is as warm towards old cars as is made out, and certainly other EU member Countries have made negative moves against their classic car (vehicle) population recently.

I am waiting for similar restrictions to apply to the UK with mileage restrictions, odometer reading having to be declared when applying for tax, or of course, where you can use your car.
I agree the Brexit issue will leave some bad tastes for the Classic vehicle population, time will tell.

All in all, a very complex situation with speculation (from me too) about the future.
Enjoy these cars while we can.

Diesel car sales down 25% in the year, electric/hybrids up 23% and petrol engine cars +6% according to Radio 2 News today. (SMMT)
The world is changing quickly.

For the kit car industry, the engines available are good and have cats etc so why not pressure to use them?
Replica old cars, (356 speedsters etc) will have real issues and may be a thing of the past due to use of VW flat 4's if all this goes through.

Just posted this in the replicas section, but also needs to go here:

As you'll be aware, there's a lot going on right now regarding IVA and BIVA, registering kit vehicles etc. The latest missive from the DofT discusses the matter of emissions. Most people think this won't affect them, as it appears to apply solely to new vehicles. Think again. As far as the proposals are concerned, any kit registered after July this year will be required to meet the current emissions standards as applied to all new vehicles. In the past, the emissions requirements have been applied according to the age of the engine used, hence a VW flat-four had no problem. That all changes. Read this post and act now by completing the on-line consultation paper. As they say, this is not a drill.

The Department for Transport’s recently published consultation, entitled ‘Road Vehicles: improving air quality and safety’, contains some worrying proposals for those building a car with a view to it passing IVA / BIVA testing.
In essence, the document suggests that all vehicles going through IVA from July this year should conform to new car emissions regulations. If this becomes law, the current IVA standard, which uses the age of the engine to determine emissions levels, will be a thing of the past. The reality is that no hot rod, reconstructed classic or kit car could ever be constructed by an amateur builder to conform to this.

You can read the full consultation here: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... and-safety
The consultation closes for responses at 11.45pm on Friday 2 March and we strongly urge everyone reading this to respond.

The NSRA’s recommended response to the consultation can be found at
http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthr ... nsultation

Draft letters designed to be sent to your local MP in support of your consultation response can be found on the NSRA forum at http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthread.php… and also on the BIVA Draft Letters Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/groups/148944219148084/

If you don’t have contact details for your local MP they can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

Everyone involved in hot rodding , car modifying and kit cars should firstly respond to the consultation and then write to their local MP. This must be done now though as the consultation closes on 2 March.

PLEASE ACT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE

That is a mighty survey!
Just done it all, 44 questions.
'Our' bit is #14 to #16ish, but questions about the legislation for one-off vehicles are in there too in other places.
Graham.

Survey done and NSRA suggested letter to local MP sent

Bootsy wrote:Survey done and NSRA suggested letter to local MP sent

As mentioned in the replica thread, I've done the same too.

done and done..
i kind of feel a middle ground such as forcing kits / replicas to be fitted with a catalytic converter would be workable, but achieving modern emissions standards with an older engine is just not practical! Even the giant manufacturers have had to radically redesign their powerplants to achieve these standards - addition of a few sensors and bolt on bits doesn't get you close..
more total bs from the govnmt unfortunately - you'd think they have more important stuff to do right now!

Thanks for highlighting - response to consultation sent

smallspeed wrote:done and done..
Even the giant manufacturers have had to install software cheat modes to achieve these standards

EFA

Here you go...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

And about the new MOTs:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... m-may-2018

Thanks Keith.

Engine – alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines are not considered a substantial change. If the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original, it is likely to be, but not necessarily, the case that the current engine is not alternative original equipment.

Still no clarification on this then. How does one interpret "it is likely to be, but not necessarily".

You could argue the 914 was available with a six cylinder option and if increasing the the cubic capacity is OK then does that mean 914 six conversions are acceptable as original and therefore don't require an MOT?

If anyone has an idea of who I could speak to about this I'd appreciate any information. I know the simplest option it to just get an MOT and that's exactly what I'll do but it would be nice to know for sure.