DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

That is a very grey area - the reality is that DVLA/DVSA had been turning a blind eye. That appears to be all about to change.

KS wrote:That is a very grey area - the reality is that DVLA/DVSA had been turning a blind eye. That appears to be all about to change.

I'm sure someone in the know had once told me something about 75%? Either 75% had to be original or up to 75% could be new. Something like that?

From https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... t-vehicles

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine

KS wrote:

theorangeperil wrote:I thought back in the 70s race cars were often rebodied?

It was illegal back then, too. Just that there were no computer records to cross-reference. You can't simply transfer the identity of one car to another shell, and claim it's the same car, same VIN and same registration number. It becomes a car built up out of parts – AKA 'Q-plate'...

Spoke to a chap a few years back who owned Timo Makinen's 1970s RAC winning car. It had been re-shelled by the factory, in period, but many of the parts had been changed over time. Still in the correct livery and with the correct number plate. The only thing original was probably the V5.

There are a load of historic rally cars out there that have been re shelled and rebuilt with modern parts. I wonder what will happen to them?
Are now not £100k cars?

From what KS is saying should they all be on Q-plates?

Strictly speaking, yes, if it doesn't abide by the regs which Barrie mentions. Don;t forget, the onus of proof is on the owner, not DVLA.

keith fellowes wrote:

KS wrote:

theorangeperil wrote:I thought back in the 70s race cars were often rebodied?

It was illegal back then, too. Just that there were no computer records to cross-reference. You can't simply transfer the identity of one car to another shell, and claim it's the same car, same VIN and same registration number. It becomes a car built up out of parts – AKA 'Q-plate'...

Spoke to a chap a few years back who owned Timo Makinen's 1970s RAC winning car. It had been re-shelled by the factory, in period, but many of the parts had been changed over time. Still in the correct livery and with the correct number plate. The only thing original was probably the V5.

There are a load of historic rally cars out there that have been re shelled and rebuilt with modern parts. I wonder what will happen to them?
Are now not £100k cars?

From what KS is saying should they all be on Q-plates?

And I think historic rally cars will be one of the hardest hit groups (and consequently carry quite a lot of weight in achieving a common sense outcome here, given the recent passing of the legislation to allow the closure of roads for Motorsport events).

By that I mean most will fall foul of BIVA due to the treatment of wheel arches and other substantial mods to their chassis. They all need to be driven on the road between stages, and none will easily pass the modern type approval proposed here without the same sort of daft changes that we described early on will affect our cars. I doubt any will give a monkeys about Q plates, but they will about making every internal and external edge smooth, adding loads of wiring for warning lights and sensors that add no value to going fast.....

For me the core issue is testing a 45 year old car as if it were a modern. It just doesn't work

rhd racer 'I doubt any will give a monkeys about Q plates,'

I think you are wrong there. Q plates are a no-no for historic cars and if you had to put a Q plate on an ex-works car its value would plummet.

keith fellowes wrote:rhd racer 'I doubt any will give a monkeys about Q plates,'

I think you are wrong there. Q plates are a no-no for historic cars and if you had to put a Q plate on an ex-works car its value would plummet.

Fair enough Keith.

Just making the point that it is somewhat secondary if the car in question cannot be used in competition anyway because it is not road legal (unless you radically alter it to comply, in which case it would [temporarily perhaps] not look much like it is intended to)

Having read the extent of the BIVA test from that nice chap at VOSA, changing the seat belt anchorage points means they need to be proven to comply with current regulations (presumably tested). I am not sure what they do in terms of shells on escorts etc, but I would not be surprised if they move them (like I did on my 914) to suit new seat position and blue book regs on harness mounting points. From what I
have read doing so basically renders the car useless as it can't pass BIVA.

If I really have to, I can get an MSA log book for mine and still compete because it doesn't need to go on the road. The fact is I don't want to, because the Boxster is better in competition and the 914 is much nicer on the road. Rally cars don't have the luxury of choosing though.

Certainly get the Q plate point at the authentic reproduction end of the scale though

Cheers

The Q plate thing and the points format on % of original vehicle remaining was the point I expressed with the old No1 court case ruling in my previous post.
Despite the Triggers broom situation old No1 does NOT qualify for a Q plate and could be cited in any DVLA contest in future. As Keith says this would be the responsibility of the owner to prove which would be long, protracted and costly but not impossible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE

I am going to run into problems with my 1970 BMW 2002ti Group 2 rally car. It has a full cage, extra mounts for the harnesses, extended arches, tubes in the sills for axle stands, sump guard mounts etc. etc. I have no issue with paying the RFL, but a Q plate?

I believe that there is some leeway built in for dual-purpose competition cars. I know I've read about it recently, but just need to find it again. I'll keep you posted...

Probably here Keith https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/wh ... rally-car/

Also from Introduction Page 9 of the MOT Testers manual :-

5. Modified Vehicles
Where a vehicle has been extensively modified or converted, certain
Reasons for Rejection, such as for components ‘missing where fitted as
standard’ should not be applied, for example:
 a car converted for rally use (i.e. rear seats removed and fitted with
a roll cage and full harness seat belts etc.) may have been
converted so as not to require a brake servo, power steering or
airbags

The full MoT manual is available at :-

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -and-7.pdf

Possibly pertinent to this discussion is Appendix C Structural Integrity and Corrosion and what are considered load bearing ( ie structural) parts as far as the MoT test is concerned.

Thanks.

I too am not bothered about having to have an MoT or pay road tax, only need 6 months anyway.

For me it is the IVA test applied to a 1973 car, and if you pass (remember you have to pass) you have a Q plate and a £450 bill.

This is a 'kit car' registration to a buyers eye so the car will now be very cheap or will not sell, and 'correct' cars will be more expensive...

Somewhere in all the DVLA/IVA stuff is a passage where the Reconstructed Classic Car (#10), has to have parts used older than 25 years, ie my 3.2 engine in my '73T and my conversion to RHD which was in late 1991. In this case the car will loose it's current reg, and get a reg related to the youngest major component, in my case the 1985 engine, thus my current Y registration will barely be different, BUT it is not a Q plate, and that is crucially important to values.

Off the DVLA site:


vehicle must comply with the road vehicles regulations if you use it on the road.

How to register

You must follow all the instructions for registering a new vehicle.

You must include the following with your application:
•written report from the appropriate vehicle owners’ club
•form V627/1 - ‘Built up vehicle inspection report’
•evidence of type approval, if necessary
•official receipts for any parts used

Get an age-related registration number

DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:
•built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
•a true reflection of the marque

The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:
•has been inspected
•is a true reflection of the marque
•is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old

They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest


Fail the IVA and your car has NO registration at all!

all those £100K Mk2 Escorts if failed will be valued by their parts...so would my 911. I think that would amount to £8K tops. I would re-convert the car to LHD and stick it up the DVLA arse.

It so happens that my 911 has a lot of competition history and an MSA log book so maybe I can claim the RHD conversion was to aid my motorsport? (I think I'm kidding..)

Trying to be positive as suggested by another DDK'r recently, the Nov 17 guidelines might show some sensibility towards classics that have been modified.

Simply, the DVLA to state "A modified car must continue to have an MoT test every 12 months" simply seems sensible, easy to understand, easy to record and easy to check.
Can such simplicity be possible?

Probably cars will just go back to what they were worth a few years ago, we all knew it was a bubble, if you didn’t you were probably in a bubble yourself.... this whole situation (admittedly I haven’t read all 21 pages on this thread...) is just dvla classifying modifications in my opinion, probably because so many people have been mis-sold cars, assume naive profiteers in past few years.
Q plates will have a different meaning in the future, in terms of car value as rules changing. Sure everyone on Ddk has done everything properly so no need to worry can’t imagine Darren’s mongrel will be worth less just because it’s on a Q!
Of course, my opinion, so having stuck my neck on the chopping board let the games begin, bring in the onslaught