DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Oops - too slow

Lightweight_911 wrote:What ?

You mean like these ?...

Go on, you know you want to donate them to me

Back to my Porsche ignornace...

pmjt wrote:

FLY 7 wrote: - Apart from some UK buyers, lhd RSs are generally considered better.

By who?

Why?

Aren't they all just RS's? They were made on the same line?

Just because the dynamics of supply and demand put a premium on 101/1550 odd why is LHD better than RHD?

p

Globally, there is really only interest in the lhd cars. Apparently, even Japanese and Far Eastern markets seem to prefer lhd RSs. It is mainly just the UK where there is a preference for rhd RSs. But, even in the UK, many purists claim that the lhd cars are better.

I've often questioned this to try and find out if there is any merit in this view and there are three plausible explanations.

The first is slightly vague, but the claim is that the earlier 911s, including the RSs, were conceived and developed to have the steering and driver on the left hand side of the vehicle. The positioning of all the major systems, controls and weight distribution favoured a lhd configuration. The rhd conversion was well executed, but was still a bit of a compromise. As such, there is a view that the lhd cars provided a purer driving experience.

Secondly, the rhd cars required the driver to be more significantly off-set to the centre. Although I've never found this to be a problem, the lhd cars do offer a more comfortable driving position.

Thirdly, the 915 gearbox was, apparently, specifically designed for a right hand gear change. The selection falls more naturally to hand. To compensate for this, many owners of rhd cars fit the short-shift kit. However, this isn't recommended. The length of the throw and the leverage were all intended to match the speed of the synchromesh. Shortening the throw usually worsens the quality of the gear selection and can cause rapid wear.

Having driven several examples of both, I can't say that the differences are significant - I've been more interested in judging the quality of the car as a whole rather than whether it was lhd or rhd.

Nick,

Documentation I have from the factory confirms the two factory entered cars as you say, my car was built by the factory but privately entered in 1973 by Chipstead's of Kensington driven by Bill Fritschy and Viscount Mandeville, in 1974 it was again driven by Fritschy but co-driven by Sir Peter Moon, and the same crew also in 1975. Peter Moon brought the car back to the UK and did a season of rallying in 1977 winning the ACSMC Stage Rally Championship. I bought it from him in 1978.

As an amusing aside, Peter Moon made the front page of the Daily Telegraph in 1992, after his wife cut the sleeves off his Saville row suits, and delivered the contents of his wine cellar to the local villagers alongside their milk, this in revenge for him having left her for a younger woman, if I can find the copy I have I'll post it, it's a good read.

Mike wrote:Andy, is it a known genuine car, must be in incredible nick with those miles?

The car and mileage will be genuine. John wouldn't risk his reputation. But, at this mileage and price, it's odd that it hasn't been snapped up. Maybe it's not as original as one would expect.

The price is not the issue. Several RSLs have sold recently in excess of this figure and there is still a healthy market for the best cars.

I wonder if it could be imported to the UK at 5% duty?

You'd pay 17.5% VAT (C&E have no interest in RSL/RST for them its just a common 911) and £50 duty fixed.

I think Andy has experience of trying to justify a cars rarity if of a common make and post 1950 with C&E..

Bootsy wrote: Those pics have confirmed one thing though - I want some Cibies on my bonnet - who can help?

There is Daniel Stern Lightning

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/prod ... ducts.html

and Cibie itself but naturally no where are Pallas lamps to be found.

http://cibieusa.com/cibie_main_frameset.htm

(unless you sneakily become a member of the Citroen DS club => they were options on the early nose DS's )

FLY 7 wrote:Globally, there is really only interest in the lhd cars.

Again, I suggest with respect that this is a non sequitur - there were 15 times as many LHD's produced - so there's enough for the remainder of the world markets and the multiplier they represent over the UK market! RHD cars will always hold a premium in the RHD markets. A four year old 996 UK RHD car will always be worth more in the UK than in mainland Europe. QED.

Besides - why if there's only interest in the LHD cars, do RHD cars - if in good condition - tend to sell within a couple of weeks?

I seem to remember David Gilhooley (spelling?) from the PCGB reckoned only 53 of the 101 RHD cars are known to clubs / have survived.

In markets like Aus, South Africa and NZ - and indeed to some collectors (including far eastern collectors) who want rarity - RHD cars are desirable. I've heard there are now problems trying to get LHD cars imported into markets like NZ and Aus even if the rarity is demonstrated to the authorities.

FLY 7 wrote:But, even in the UK, many purists claim that the lhd cars are better.

Again, I still don't see why? What is the reason for this beyond heresay and speculation? And who are these 'purists' - they seem to make comments and rarely stand around to support them?! Are they all owners of LHD cars?

FLY 7 wrote:The first is slightly vague, but the claim is that the earlier 911s, including the RSs, were conceived and developed to have the steering and driver on the left hand side of the vehicle. The positioning of all the major systems, controls and weight distribution favoured a lhd configuration. The rhd conversion was well executed, but was still a bit of a compromise. As such, there is a view that the lhd cars provided a purer driving experience.

Beyond the 'suggestions' by 'purists' (I've never yet met one of these!) I think Porsche identified the importance of the RHD markets - like South Africa and the UK, in the late 1950's and early 1960's - the 356 relied on these markets for many years especially for the more valuable models.

The very earliest RHD 356's were a compromise - there's do doubt.

I can't accept the assertion that Porsche simply left the RHD 'conversion' as an after thought on the 911 - we all love Porsche for their engineering excellence and to suggest that when they came to the 911 they'd just 'convert' the cars without designing in RHD just doesn't, to me, make sense. It's not very 'Porsche' is it?

FLY 7 wrote:Secondly, the rhd cars required the driver to be more significantly off-set to the centre. Although I've never found this to be a problem, the lhd cars do offer a more comfortable driving position.

I believe this is really only a phenomenon of the later cars like the 993. I can compare both the LHD and RHD 993 RS and the RHD is signifficantly offset, and I'd have to agree with this point - on the later cars only.

I don't think the offset is the same on earlier cars though?

FLY 7 wrote:Thirdly, the 915 gearbox was, apparently, specifically designed for a right hand gear change. The selection falls more naturally to hand. To compensate for this, many owners of rhd cars fit the short-shift kit. However, this isn't recommended. The length of the throw and the leverage were all intended to match the speed of the synchromesh. Shortening the throw usually worsens the quality of the gear selection and can cause rapid wear.

Personally, I've never modified anything Zuffenhausen created - I've always worked on the basis they knew what they were doing when they designed the cars - but's that's just my personal opinion.

I have both LHD and RHD 915 cars and I've never noticed any pervievable difference, no matter on which side of the car I'm sat.

FLY 7 wrote:Having driven several examples of both, I can't say that the differences are significant - I've been more interested in judging the quality of the car as a whole rather than whether it was lhd or rhd.

I agree - with cars now over 30 years old - the importance is the condition of the car and it's provenace. Just because it's LHD, I can't see why it's "better"?

FLY 7 wrote: - Apart from some UK buyers, lhd RSs are generally considered better.

Beyond the fact that there's a larger market for LHD cars, and that there are more of them (between 15 and 30 times!), I can't see why "LHD RS's are generally considered better"?

A properly restored LHD or RHD car is the same - they drive the same, they stop the same, and (from the outside) they look the same.

Yes, there's a larger market for LHD.

Yes, there's a small premium for the rarity of the RHD.

Having owned both, and still owning several LHD and RHD cars, I don't see why one is "better" than the other?

p

FLY 7 wrote:The price is not the issue. Several RSLs have sold recently in excess of this figure and there is still a healthy market for the best cars.

I agree - the $240k is about par for an RSL at the moment in time - there is another RHD RSL with a 'built up' non matching engine for signifficantly more on the market at the moment.

FLY 7 wrote:I wonder if it could be imported to the UK at 5% duty?

<Sigh> - I miss those days - I really don't think the current regime is fair - it's just *another* tax the bean counters have spotted to crucify UK residents

On a side note - I recently imported a set of IDS' carbs from the US. When they landed at the UK, I got a phone call from the courier asking "how would I like to pay the duty?" - I explained they were 'vintage' parts and after being requested to send an email to confirm they were 'collectors' parts for a 1960's car, I got them at 5% VAT

Now, if we were to take it to pieces and send them accross........

p

Bootsy, there are two ways to source the lamps, the porsche rare and collector parts dealers where you could pay over £600 the pair.

Or of course the giveaway is the name, they are called Pallas lamps, from the old Citroen's so do what I did, get them from a citroen DS parts dealer, or breakers in France or Belgium, I paid under a £80 for a pair a few years ago, just make sure the reflectors are in good nick, rims can be rechromed and you will repaint anyway!
Pic shows my car with them on the wing position, the problem with them on the bonnet is they are right in your eye line.

I eventually took them off when I got my new wings, didn't want to drill holes in them!

Djeez Mike, that is one cool 911 in an ubercool garage!

904GTS wrote:Hi,

Does anybody have any information on 2.7 RS chassis number 0141, it may be coming my way in a somewhat complicated deal. I haven't seen it yet and would appreciate any info on its history, original spec etc., before I go and see it.

Hi,

I bought a copy of Octane the other day. There is a feature on an RS M471. Apparently this car is owned by a Wilfied Holzenthal who is chairman of the 'Carrera RS Club and Registry'. He might be able to help you with respect to 0141.

Porsche Carrera RS IG
c/o Wilfried Holzenthal
Haupstrasse 36
5419 Weidenhahn, West Germany

I intend to write to him myself. Could not find an associated website.

With regard to values I have it on good information that £70k is a fair baseline for good useable LHD Touring. That should get one that is nice and useable with no major work required, matching numbers, most if not all of the hard to get RS specific parts, and a fair bit of history, in a desirable colour. Cars under that figure would expect to be defective in one or more of the foregoing areas. IMHO It should be in good servicable condition but not show for that sort of figure. Cars on the continent might be a touch cheaper as demand is not quite at the rarefied UK level.

Damn things are looking volatile at the moment. Could go up or down. 246 Dinos went to similar levels a couple of years ago but they look to have come back down. So did DB4s and 5s but they are still up there and if anything continuing to rise. Talking of that there was an RS touring advertised at an Aston specialist in the Spring for 45k. Rang it but predictably the car had already gone. Apparently the car was good and genuine. Dealer admitted he misjudged the market. Somebody got a cheap RS there. I wonder if it was that one that was sold through Hairpin that turned up at the ACE. If not anybody know where it went?

Did all RS's have the transmission oil pump or just the lightweights ?