Tyre Alternatives

[Dougal Cawley]

That is complete crap.

[Dougal Cawley]

Hi

I hope you like this film about the tyre options https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK0vy1moGYg

I haven't gone into the options of modern stuff that is out there. this is just about the good stuff.

Please watch it and coment

[S.J.Szabo]

Well Mr.Cawley, I prefer to think of it as a well-considered divergent opinion, based on personal experiences, but thanks for the thoughtful critique just the same.

Of course, you may have tipped your mitt some by dismissing "modern" tires as crap as well, but I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about your ideas about "crap".

[Ashley James]

I've got these on the Healey and they're very good, I've been using Vredestein for about forty years now and I like them, so they go on the 356 as well.

I know and like all the tyres Dougal sells, but the prices are much too high for this OAP.

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s408p12 ... se%3A_70dB

[Kenyon]

My view, you pay for what you get in this area. Also appreciate all the helpful input from Dougal on this.

I was talking to some mates about Blockley Tyres. There's been a few posts on here about the.

http://www.blockleytyre.com/

They were extolling the virtues of the products. I was surprised you can set up a tyre manufacturer and get in the game as a small supplier. I'd assumed the barriers to entry - around testing and specification and machinery - would be too great to make it worthwhile.

Anyway, seems like a decent story and run by a really passionate car guy.

Phil

[Dougal Cawley]

Of course, you may have tipped your mitt some by dismissing "modern" tires as crap as well, but I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about your ideas about "crap".

Hi Szabo

I don't think i have said modern tyres are crap.

What i have said is that modern tyres don't suit old car designs.

So if you dramatically modify an old car, by lowering it, stiffening the springs and adding some adverse camber you can make them get more ultimate grip from the modern tyre carcass design. However you will be compromising other elements of the cars drive to more ultimate grip. It is not all about ultimate grip. If it is ultimate grip you want buy a different car. (what you might want for racing is different)

Hi Kenyon

Can i encourage you to read this report https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer ... rticle.pdf which will give you an independent view about the different tyres out there.

[S.J.Szabo]

Hi Mr.Cawley:

My bad; I should have quoted you more directly, instead of making the obvious inference from "...options of modern stuff that is out there. this is just about the good stuff."

At any rate, I believe our... banter has brought us (or me anyway) to a point of potential enlightenment with your comment of "...modern tyres don't suit old car designs". So I wonder if I might impose upon your knowledge, so I might learn in just what way this statement is true.

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, I will note that I have always thought that radial tire carcass construction has been largely unchanged (including shoulder configuration, but excluding minor changes in cord angles) since the '60s. Of course, there have been advances in both cord types and carcass and tread rubber composition, but I just naturally assumed these would be incorporated in the current production (for the sake of maximum safety and performance) of the "classic" designs.

And while I remain enamored with some the the old tread patterns, in my ignorance I cannot grasp how those alone are more complementary to old suspensions than contemporary designs. So I hope you will forgive me for not grasping a single kernel of applicable reality in your statement.

On the other hand, I could not agree more with your views on "ultimate grip". In fact, this issue is the main advantage (besides cost) of using modern and inexpensive tires (At this point, it is important to reiterate that I am not talking about the rubber bands that are all the rage these days, and that would require the drastic modifications you describe; I refer to 60 to 70 aspect ratios only.) with a high wear rating: realizing the fun factors and learning opportunities of less-than-optimal grip characteristics in everyday driving.

I have long been of the conviction that entertainment and education are the values at the core of "you don't have to go fast to get sideways" mantra. I confess this is the motivation for my long-held appreciation for the art and joy of winter driving in snowy climes (like those found most winters here in the wilds of the Midwest).

So, you can see my problem; in my ignorance, I'm having a lot of fun at very little cost in my everyday driving. Clearly, I need help to conform to the norm.

[Dougal Cawley]

Here you go. it's in this picture

[Adrian3]

it seems to me that the opposite from those drawings is the case.....many older tyre profiles had a very square section, whereas most of the modern tyres have quite a rounded section, not at all what is depicted in those sketches, and , of course, the camber of the wheels on a 356, when in a bend, is nothing like those sketches also

[Dougal Cawley]

Well this picture doesn't demonstrate it very well. It is a tricky things to show on a photo.



What about these. possibly show it a little better.






I have added this picture to show an extreme. The squareness of the shoulders increases the lower profile you get.

[Adrian3]

Dougie, the Dunlop Blu response i'll be using look exactly like the top tyre you show and the Vred Sprint Classics i also bought (still for sale!) look like the bottom pic....i guess as long as you chose carefully, moderns are fine

[Dougal Cawley]

Dougie, the Dunlop Blu response i'll be using look exactly like the top tyre you show and the Vred Sprint Classics i also bought (still for sale!) look like the bottom pic....i guess as long as you chose carefully, moderns are fine

Hi

Sorry the Dunlop Blu Response isn't really like the CN36. It won't handle as well as the CN36. because it is built to be fitted to a different kind of car. Also i don't think they make a 165R15 or even a 185/70VR15

It is a bit like saying a VW Beatle is as good as a 356

Have i posted this article by the German magazine as a reference back to back test of classic car tyres http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/cl ... sche-tyres

this is an interesting article written by James Kraus

https://autouniversum.wordpress.com/201 ... mment-6351

Endangered Species: The Early Porsche 911
Posted on 02/02/2011
by James Kraus


Like the 356 that it replaced, the 911 was a very special car and quite unique in the marketplace.
The unconventional design incorporated a number of characteristics that defined its character and set it apart from its competitors.
Supple, long-travel suspension. Unlike most decidedly sporting automobiles of the era, the 911 combined excellent roadholding and handling with a smooth, comfortable and well-damped ride that was unique at the time.
Ample ground clearance. In combination with the long-travel suspension, comfortable seats and spacious cabin, this is what made the 911 (and the earlier 356) stand out among other sports cars as legitimate daily drivers regardless of terrain, weather or road conditions. While other drivers had to be cautious of possible threats to low-hanging exhaust systems and oil sumps, the Porsche driver could press on. In concert with rear-engine traction, the generous ground clearance allowed the 911 access anywhere; high-crowned gravel roads, dirt roads or snow-covered roads. The 911 would take on any road anywhere.
Extremely light, sensitive and responsive steering. With most of its weight in the rear, the 911 was able to provide the enthusiastic driver with the best of all possible worlds: a fast steering ratio, the directness and feedback of a full-mechanical system and the low-effort of a powered system. Light, responsive and alive, the 1970-1973 model-year 911’s had in all probability the finest steering ever to be experienced in a mass-produced automobile.
These attributes combined to enshrine the 911 as the premier Gran Turismo; a sporting car capable of whisking a securities broker at high speed down to Saint-Tropez for a weekend of relaxation, and back to Zurich in a relaxing enough manner that he could meet with private clients on Monday morning, fully refreshed and alert. And the Porsche could execute this feat under any road conditions, up to and including fairly deep snow.


Unfortunately, all too many buyers of early 911’s immediately set about molesting them; denigrating and negating the very characteristics that made them special.
While owners of vintage Ferrari’s, Lancia’s, Mercedes and most other marques seem content to enjoy and drive their cars in the manner in which they left their respective factories, 911 owners somehow feel the need to don an engineer’s smock and recreate their cars according to their own specific fantasy.
The first thing most of these erstwhile automotive designers do in a misguided attempt to “improve” the car is add extra-wide tyres (usually after lengthy contemplations of which size combination would look best), a tiny steering wheel, and lower and stiffer suspension by way of oversize torsion and anti-roll bars. This immediately transforms the classic 911 into a generic (albeit rear-engined and air-cooled) harsh-riding, heavy-steering sports car at its best only at high speeds on smooth surfaces.
Some add fatter torsion bars only at the rear as a compliment to huge rear tyres. If an unwitting future owner switches to equal-sized rubber all around, he will likely find himself soon sliding into a ditch tail-first, wondering what happened.


I have driven a number of these FrankenPorsches and found them most unpleasant. I can only conclude that their owners actually bought the wrong car, and would likely be better served with an alternative vintage classic like a Healey 3000, an E-Type or an Aston Martin.


Other early 911 drivers go beyond adding steamroller tyres and bone-jarring suspension by tossing out the original 2.0-2.4 litre engine in lieu of a 3.0 or 3.2 motor in a never-ending search for more torque. They get possessed by a fever and the only cure seems to be more torque. Unfortunately, this is often accompanied by installing the later, more robust 915 gearbox, which on earlier cars, requires hacking into the body shell to provide room.
For these individuals I have another suggestion: A 1963-1967 Corvette Sting Ray. Here is a firm-riding, low-slung, low ground-clearance machine right as it came out of the factory. Torque? There is an unlimited supply with engines ranging from 5.5-7.0 litres. And the coup de grâce: with the often-fitted over-boosted power steering, adding larger tyres can actually improve the steering feel.


Best to decide in advance what characteristics one prefers in an automobile and select the car that best meets those criteria as originally built. Any modifications should be correct to period; is that not the point of buying a classic car? As to tyre size, to preserve the 911’s original steering lightness and sensitivity, I would never install anything larger than 185/70-15 at the front, particularly on a 911 built prior to September of 1969. This is because the earlier cars had much more castor (the top strut mounts were located 14 mm further rearward as compared to newer cars) and are even more sensitive to the installation of wider tyres. Keep in mind that 185/70-15 was the size later factory-fitted to the front of the considerably heavier and more powerful 930 Turbo. I do not recall anyone accusing the Turbo of being under-tyred.
Wide tyres can lower lap times if you are actually racing the car competitively, but the originally homologated sizes retain more driving pleasure. The early 911s with displacements of 2.0-2.4 liters did not have giant reserves of torque at their disposal, so as tyre size increases, the ability to steer the car with the throttle decreases. The most fun is to be had in cars with a moderate rubber-to-power ratio. This is exactly why the original Mini Coopers were so entertaining; they had a healthy bit of power feeding tiny 145 x 10 tyres.
If one is after extra adhesion, stickier tyres are a better alternative than wider tyres. Some good period-correct choices (though not inexpensive) are the Michelin 165HR-15 XAS, the Avon FIA-spec CR6ZZ 175/70-15 or 185/70-15 and the Michelin 185/70VR-15 XWX.
If you are considering the purchase of an early 911, you must be careful that you are not in fact unwittingly buying a FrankenPorsche. While most modifications can be visually discerned, in order to verify torsion bar diameters, some disassembly is required.
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(i might point out that when he wrote this the CN36 was not available)

[Dougal Cawley]

Oh and another thing. The Cinturato CN36 has an N4 homologation. which is Porsche saying that this is the tyre they recommend.

It is fair to say that when i make tyre recommendations for people, i pay no regard for their bank balance. i simply recommend the best tyres. and it is up to you guys to consider your smoking credit card.

I don't look at a 356 and think they are worth more money now, so you need to fit a more expensive tyre. the value of a car has no sway on the tyre we recommend. I still recommend £ 300 tyres for a £ 1,000 XJ6 Jaguar. the fact they are dead cheap, does not mean you should fit a crap tyre.

With a car like a 356, where handling is a big part of the pleasure of ownership. To me it is all about the drive, and you know in your heart of hearts that if you fit a wrong size cheap tyre it doesn't handle as well.

I understand that money is an issue, but for me to splash out a few extra hundred quid to make your car will handle as well as it possibly can is what i would do. I understand that lots of people don't have the extra cash, and have to compromise, but please don't try to tell us there as good or better.

It's not just me saying it; there s Porsche, and that German magazine, and then if you look at all the other posts i've put on here and other forums you will find several people say "Wow! They're Ace". you will find other people arguaing against them, justifying buying cheaper tyres. but you won't find anyone that has bought them that doesn't like them. they just agree with what Porsche say.

[POR68]

I have used the Vredestein Sprint Classics for a while now on the 356 and find them very good value. Grip is much better than I had perviously. However, I do have the Koni's set at soft all round. It seems to me that spring plate angles and suspension damping are an important part of the overall package. I have the Michelin XWX's on the 68 911 and also have avoided using a rear stabiliser bar to assist with tyre grip.

[S.J.Szabo]

Mr.Cawley:

I do so enjoy your repartee for many good reasons, but best of all is that you keep making my point(s) for me.

"It is a bit like saying a VW Beatle is as good as a 356"

Why yes, it is exactly like saying that. Now, remember your audience; everyone here is very aware that when in comes to getting around a corner, a VW is (giving due allowance for the difference in center of gravity) as good as a 356, because they are the same car under the skin.

Which very nicely makes (for me) the core point in this rather arcane but very interesting discussion:

“Tires grip, cars handle.”

So if one knowingly gives up some grip, the trade-off is that one gets that much closer to the handling. And in a 356, that is a good thing, not because it is predictable and forgiving, but because it is quirky, and demanding, and has the faint air of danger about it as goes about doing it’s thing with a most unseemly efficiency.

The rise to immortality of the 356 (and to some degree, the VW as well) owes much to the fact that if the driver is up to it, they both are capable of delivering an improbable performance wrapped in thick layers of Big Fun. Granted, this is all a matter of an earned taste, but for the original (tho now dwindling) demographic of rabid fans with greasy nails and visions of road courses dancing in their heads, that challenge was half the attraction. No place for the indecisive or the faint of heart, even in daily driving. A man’s car.

And none of it had much to do with whether or not one was on the grippiest tires that money could buy.

It is this now-vanished sense of challenge and adventure and a submersion into the gestalt of the car that leads quite naturally to a tendency to fiddle, that clearly escapes the ken of Mr.Krause. Obviously, there is a fellow in his natural element with the hands-off world of stockers and garage queens, without the imagination or technical proclivities to understand the zeitgeist of seeing any automobile as a canvas already painted, but not in permanent colors.

Frankly, I feel sorry for him, and I’m not surprised that he found modified early 911s to be “most unpleasant”. After all, those Benzes and Ferraris are so very comfy and undemanding, whether he is trolling down a boulevard, or doing the prudent speed limit around mountain roads. Poor fellow; a car like an early 911, that, like the 356, demands to be engaged, is just too much for his delicate sensibilities or his expertise as a driver.

It seems to me, Mr.Cawley, that your choice of effete literary support does more for my point of view than for yours, so again, I thank you.


PS: With the obvious exception of stupidly oversized, fashionably square-shouldered tires, I missed your cogent explanation of how similar radials are “designed” for different cars. Maybe it was too esoteric for my clumsy perceptions.