DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Fill yer boots lads:

Martin,
Heres the bottom line. You knew my budget was between £2000 and £2500. You stated it would be nearer the £3k mark. Not one point during the build did you state that you were getting close to this let alone so far over the £3000 ceiling. I asked you to regard £3000 as a top limit. Why did you not request my consent before spending such large sums of money on products that were not required - I didnt demand the best, just a good job? You seem to have taken this on as a 'show piece' yourselves, but to me it will never be that. Its my hobby and 'only' a kit. I never once suggested I needed this level of expense.

I am amazed that you are setting up a business but you have failed to manage the expectations of your customer. That a budget has become irrelevant to you, and YOU decided to spare no expense on this project.

When did I ever give you the impression I would accept such a monumental increase in this work?? Where is the value in this? I wanted a summer toy, not a show car.

Hardly any effort was made on the car until this year. Progress was painfully slow - twice a week for 5 months I came in with little progress. Dom must have been in overdrive these last few of weeks as so much has been done..

That doesn't take away from the fact that YOU overspent MY budget without any consideration to what I wanted or expected.

It seems to have gone from Lada to Lambo in the last few weeks along with the price. Do you paint all your customers cars to this high standard?? Its unnecessary, costly and wasn't once agreed by me - the customer.

I am not prepared to pay this ludicrous price. If you are not prepared to negotiate for your own gain long term as stated in previous message then we have a serious issue. I am prepared to meet you halfway even though my max budget has been smashed to pieces.

I wanted to do you a favour - promoting the skills you have. I'm not sure that you are too bothered about this.

I will come down tomorrow afternoon to have a chat. As stated I will be able to draw £3000. Can we have a chat about this or are you going to stand by this estimate which puts us into stalemate? Hardly a situation either of us want.

Paul





Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:33:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Porsche Speedster Invoice
From:
To: bonerp@hotmail.co.uk



Paul,
We have sat down and looked at your email and at the forum page.
We strongly disagree with the comments of those on the forum page, if thats the standard of level that they work at, i wouldnt recommend taking a push bike to them!

Reason being for high consumables is because:
Poor coverage in colour
Complete respray of body shell (interior & exterior)
Body panels (interior & exterior)
Complete treatment of chassis (sprayable sealer)
Engine compartment
Boot compartment
Yellow is renoun as an extremely transparent colour, this could be due to the high consumption of paint used. Also being a big area to cover including parts (interior, exterior & edges) to be painted as well, this all mounts up to 12 litres of basecoat (rfu).

We used 9 litres of primer however, when activated and thinned ready to spray, the total volume is 15 litres of high build filler primer.

We used 10 litres of Lacquer, once activated and thinned the total volume is 15 litres of Lacquer rfu was applied.

This is a total of 42 litres of product used on your vehicle through out the process, not 47 litres, as stated in your email.
The thickness of paint applied to your vehicle will meet all standards set from any paint manufactuer.

We agree that the price has risen more than expected however this is a major project and restoration of your fibreglass vehicle, which involves alot more detailing, time and materials compared to a metal bodyshell, knowing that you have high standards and it will be a show car, without these products, i couldnt of guaranteed you a job of this standard and high quality without them.

In the original quote of your vehicle, the underneath (chassis) wasnt accounted for, this boosted the price by 600 pound with labour, materials and applicator, plus the high quality SR Lacquer with UV protectors has crept up the price more.
Many hours have been put into your vehicle and many unaclaimed hours have as well, and feel we have knocked as much money off the job as we can.

Regards
Dom & Martin
Autosprays

I'm rolling my sleeves up now. Tell me where we are going we dont like bullies unless we are doing the bullying

Stevie B

Calm down Steve and roll your sleeves down and put some trousers on, please.

If you go round heavy handed you may get his body back, but long term they know were he lives, would'nt take much to throw something over his car when finished, just to get even. Then Paul is the victim, left with a car needing a new paint job. No win situation going in heavy handed really...

bonerp wrote:

Paul,
We have sat down and looked at your email and at the forum page.


Regards
Dom & Martin
Autosprays

They don't seem too concerned about the bad publicity and obviously feel that they have done nothing wrong. These things are normally down to misunderstandings (on both sides) and as mentioned already a mismanagement of customers expectations.

I don't think trying to scare them with a newspaper will achieve much (especially since they have now been alerted to this thread )

Paul, Can I suggest that you speak to your solicitor and/or citizen's advice before doing anything else so you know exactly where you (and they) stand. And perhaps keep things off-line until you have a resolution.

Cheers

Just to act as devil's avocate here: I used (I think) around 14 litres of Gulf Blue on my old 911, and at least 10 litres of primer. This was interior, exterior and a quick colour of the underside.

Also I did a 2.7 Carrera a while back (Grand Prix White) and that took around 12 litres over a grey primer. I've got a feeling that took around eight litres of primer, but that followed a coat of poly which saved some. This was exterior only BTW.

It was a non-laquer finish, so don't know about that, although I would suspect that you would need quite a lot less laquer (my guess would be something nearer five litres, but as I say, just a guess).

They are dead right about yellow though: it is absolutely notorious for not covering, even if you tint the primer (quite a common practice now it seems). Two programmes stand out if you watch Sky: Wrecks to Riches (the lame U.K. one): Vauxhall VXR in yellow, and one of the American Hotrods (either the 1950's Corvette, or one of the Mustangs). The VXR they made the point that you just don't know whether it'll need four coats or seven, and in A/H they ended up putting (literally) gallons and gallons on to get the coverage.

I don't do painting commercially, but have painted around twenty cars I suppose in my time, so have nothing to gain or lose by pitching in. Each time I've painted a car, I've been amazed at just how much paint ends up on the thing: even if a lot of it gets sanded / polished back off again .

I have to say though, that it seems to me that anyone that is painting a whole car for less than £2000 labour is working for absolutely nothing: you would have to be going like the wind to do all of the filler work properly, including tidying gaps, panel trail fits, panel removals, paint the inside and outside and reassemble all within 100 hours and get a reasonable finish to it. The painters I recommend (and are the only ones I use) can turn a car around in 80-100 hours, but for a 'proper' job it's nearer 200-250 hours. It's not unknown for the really top end stuff to go beyond 400-500 hours. That gets you top-top-concours though.

I guess all I'm saying is that I suspect that there may be more than a grain of truth in what they are saying. I don't know what the situation is with the underside, and this doesn't get around the lack of communication. Bottom line is clearly they shouldn't have put you or indeed, themselves, into this situation. Against this, from how you've described the actual work, I'd be surprised if there's any deliberate shafting going on, more a case of people painted into corners.

I hope you can find a solution that is fair on all sides .

Thanks for your input barry. Gonna pop down later with some money and see if the colour of it keeps him happy

I was thinking about this overnight, and actually I might have been a bit mistaken on my quantities (was trying to remember whether the row of tins were 2.5l or 5l ).

Mind you, even if you halved the quantities, by time you factor in the fibreglass factor and the yellow factor, you're going to be heading back up again.

The bottom line is that materials have obviously been tweaked upwards a bit or even a lot, but this is almost certainly to keep the labour content looking closer to the orginal pricing.

BUT, I'm pretty sure that as they progressed the job it just sucked up the hours. They almost certainly found that they had to spend much more time on the prep to get it to a reasonable standard before priming, and quite likely then had to do a whole lot more again after that as well. Just as they thought they were gaining on it, it then started sucking up yellow paint left right and centre, with more and more booth time.

The trouble is with paint, and indeed, my metalwork, is there's rarely a 'right' or 'wrong', just degrees ranging from unacceptable all the way through to very, very good. The trouble is that everyone's view is different, and as a trader you are always in the position of trying to find a route which falls far enough up that curve to keep the customer happy, and your reputation in tact.

It's not unusual for a customer to specify work along the lines of 'I don't want something special', but from my experience, it doesn't matter what the cost, and what spec, the customer will crawl over that car with a fine toothcomb. Whatever they had said gets forgotton and every blemish, ripple, silicon spot, door gap etc etc gets picked up: even if it's not said, you can see it on their face.

So again, I'm not saying they are in the right, because they should have certainly kept you abreast of the cost increases, but I do feel more than a little sympathy for their position. If they had cut back on time and materials they would be accused of bodging it, and as it is they are accused / implied of being on the make.

Very tricky stuff on both sides. One tip is to work out what you are both actually arguing over: you had your revised top limit of £3000, then there's the undersealing, so if you give them the benefit of that, that gives you a remaining disputed amount. It seems to me that you're both only £350 apart at the moment?

Anyway, good luck with it, and I genuinely hope that both parties come away satisfied that at the very least, everyone has been fair. At the end of the day, they are trying to run a business in a difficult industry, and much more to the point, you are simply trying to progress a project that is meant to be a fun / enjoyable pastime (easy to forget sometimes ).

Reasoned and considered Barry - as always.

Barry - you weren't a marriage guidance counsellor in a former life were you ?

Excellent advice/reasoning ...

I agree that Yellow does bleed through but 12 litres of basecoat for a speedster with no roof although inside is taking the mick, we also need to point out that they knew the colour Paul wanted and therfore should have quoted accordingly, all said and done there has never been 42 litres of paint gone onto that little car!!

Adam

Lightweight_911 wrote:Barry - you weren't a marriage guidance counsellor in a former life were you ?

Excellent advice/reasoning ...

No, but a reserve career might be useful, so thanks for the idea .

well I went back this afternoon with my pocket stuffed with cash and we agreed to meet in middle. Breakdown bloke next door couldnt drop it back tonight due to a job but i am going down tomorrow first thing for it to be delivered.

Final cost £3500.

We had a chat about the build etc and they agreed they should have relayed costs to me during build and to be honest, as a project manager I should applied my job skills to this... doh.

Anyway all being well, my shiney new yellow car will be back. Pics to follow and gratitude to those of you who took time to respond. nice 'family' this

Sounds like a fair outcome - glad you were able to sort it out amicably.

Ditto .

Looking forward to seeing the pics .

Good outcome in the end, much better than it getting nasty, nobody wins in those situations.

At least you are now at the nice stage of the project, bolting shiney new bits on to a shiney new shell. - Enjoy..