DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

excellent Darren, it truly is a wonder what can be done..

my hotrod build has been a bit like this one...the starting point looked a bargain, once blasted less so, and as you said once you are in you are in.

rest assured though the finished article will be great and I suspect you will have a lot of fun driving it, whereas the white E might be a tiny bit too nice to hoon??

the costs I know well can drive you mad. BUT isnt there something just so satisfying in a project like this, especially in the ephemeral world we live in these days...

squirdan wrote:ephemeral

Ok admittedly I had to look that up.....but well said

Coming along nicely Darren, it will be a lovely car when finished especially with all those signature details.

Barry



Cheers
Chris

You know you're a bit sad when you take a 120 mile round trip to photograph a set of barrels & pistons!………but then I don't need much of an excuse to take the E for a spin and it was a nice day and always good to see Nick at Redtek…...plus they're seriously sexy barrels & pistons that arrived yesterday ….

Nick managed to locate a set of new Mahle 89mm x 66mm short stroke barrels & pistons through Alex at FVD in Germany……Alex managed to track down the two remaining sets that Mahle have in stock; he was told by Mahle that they have broken the cast/tool used to make these sets and will only make another tool if someone is willing to place an order for 60 sets…..for such a rare race part this isn't going to happen anytime soon so be quick if you want to grab the last set!

Another option would have been to go with 90mm pistons and 2.7 barrels to reach the required CC but then I want this to be an authentic rally spec 2.5 litre engine……work on the rebuild starts soon, can't wait!

A visit to Barry this week to drop off a few items and check on progress…..



…although there's still quite a bit to do we're on the final straight, the whole front end has been completely replaced, backdated and looking impressive …



…nearside now complete…



..fitting the OS inner wing was a little more problematic and took a LOT of sorting from Barry before it would fit nicely; even the attached wing closer was miles out and had to be taken off and moved, imagine an inexperienced body builder having to deal with that! …interestingly the NS inner wing was produced prior to Porsche moving their panel production whereas the OS was manufactured by their new suppliers….slipping quality standards d'you think???…

…sorry James, OS battery box had to go, not needed and way too heavy!…Barry will replace it with a nicely made plate…



…OS door post being backdated and fitted, Barry includes the check strap fixing point here as it's welded to the inner position as opposed to the outer on new items from Porsche...



…you can hardly see the join ….



All the talk now is of the fun items we're building in which I hope to show soon…..completion will be towards the end of November

Cheers,

Looking good Darren, cant wait for the update on the "fun items".

Dilemma.......

We're just about to go full out with my engine rebuild - the sale of my 993 releasing some much needed fun funds and Mark's recent market place discussion ST thread has had me pondering on which way to go with the induction system. This was my original plan...

Darren65 wrote: Engine
2.2S engine fully rebuilt to 2.5 specification; cases bored to accept larger barrels and pistons and boat tailed, line honed, shuffle pinned, oil pressure relief by-pass, time sert head studs, machined barrel decks, oil squirters, heavy duty head studs, heads bored to accept twin spark, open out stacks etc – target of 100BHP per litre
Butterfly’s bored out to 42mm
Inlet and outlet ports to 41mm
New 66x89mm Mahle Barrels & Pistons
Twin Spark Distributor with custom body
GE60 Cams
Lightweight clear engine shroud
Custom Race Headers (no heat)
Silenced twin out exhaust with custom tips
Trombone oil cooler with external sill pipes

I'm now wondering if I should go all out and fit high butterflies?

I think the 2.2S engine is the perfect base engine to start with although wondering if I'm moving too far away from my initial remit?

This build was never intended as a full out ST rep.....although wanting to keep things kind of period correct, the 'blueprint' is that of a street racer that was built in 1978 with the inspiration coming from all R/ST/RS race cars....the guy building the car at the time would have loved an RS/RSR but couldn't afford one, had limited funds and was working with what he had....

...therefore the question is, would I being doing the right thing by going with high butterflies or would the original plan of adapting what I have be 'purer' and more in keeping with my original theme?

Obviously the benefit of switching the induction system is that I don't have to mess with my current butterflies/stacks and could sell these on at a later date although for the time being I planned to keep all of the 2.2S parts in case I ever wanted to go backwards.

As far as high butterfly kits are concerned, those produced by Ben Coles seem to be the best available?

The thoughts and comments of the esteemed DDK community will be much appreciated?

Cheers,

Not an answer to your dilemma but I'd say that the best high butterflies come from Matt Blast at Eurometrics ...

Andy's right, Matt Blast's high butterflies are the best there are, but you need to be quick as he may only have one or two sets left.
Ben Coles on the other hand, be careful there.....

Thanks Andy, Mike,

That was obviously the second part of my question but what about moving away from my initial plan, is it the right way to go as far as the engine build is concerned......what would you guys do?

Cheers,

Darren65 wrote:the 'blueprint' is that of a street racer that was built in 1978 with the inspiration coming from all R/ST/RS race cars....the guy building the car at the time would have loved an RS/RSR but couldn't afford one, had limited funds and was working with what he had....

Reading that, I can't help thinking that an enthusiast working in the late 70's on a budget would be steering well clear of complicated, little understood and expensive mfi and would just bolt a couple of webers.
>C

PS I've just dug out my copy of Chris Harvey's 1980 book on 911s. In the 'Build your own 911' chapter he says (of 2.2 engines) "modifying the fi system to take the extra-large butterflies can be very expensive, so it is better to think in terms of using carburettors for extra performance". He further states that the lack of parts for the 2.0 and 2.2 litre engine means its much cheaper to start by substituting a larger, later (and "readily available") engine.

I appreciate that you're taking a quite different approach, just thought I'd mention it (before heading back out to a cold garage ).

Thanks for that but it's MFI all the way for me.........plus I'm allowed to make things up as I go!

Darren65 wrote:Thanks for that but it's MFI all the way for me.........plus I'm allowed to make things up as I go!

.....plus the guy has a very good friend who's an expert engine builder and MFI specialist who's willing to do the work for peanuts!

If you're considering an authentic high butterfly set-up you may need to check out the going rate for a kidney (& other internal organs !) ...

Yeh, so I've noticed! …..I doubt they'll be NOS but there seems to be some good reproduction items out there.

Hi Darren, well you did ask.... I know it's a mongrel but I wonder at the sense of putting high butterflies in a narrow bodied car.
If you had gone the way of an ST with big rear arches then they would be perfect, but I think they would be over the top for the
narrow look you're going with.

Also if you were to go down the road of high butterflies there are a myriad of factors you must consider, like for instance your
need to match the inlet bores of your heads to the butterfly bore, and to find smaller bore hb's for your 2.5 might be a little more
difficult than finding the big bore RSR versions.

Then of course you have to build your injection pump to supply the high butterflies, now that might not be so bad if you're happy
just to do the internals, but by the time you've gone to all the trouble of doing the twin plug dizzy and the high butterflies it's only
a matter of time before you decide the mfi pump looks wrong, and to put that right your talking serious money, it makes the hb's
look cheap!

Then you say this is a driver, so what will you do about air filtration on the high butterfly open trumpets. That again is a whole lot
of money to do correctly and then when you have the modified air box sat on top of the hb's replacing the open trumpets you spent
a fortune on, you can't see the injection system anyway.....

Just a few things to think about, but why so set on mfi, narrow bodied street type racer to me means an 911R look, so why not
consider pmo's, have a look at this engine bay, I'm sure Ferry Man won't mind my using it as an example but it's a gem.
So pure and simple, easy to do and relativity inexpensive for the look... perfect!



If you go through Paul's thread, you'll see diffrent filter configurations as well. Hope that helps and gives you more ideas to explore.