DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Lightweight_911 wrote:I just clicked on the link in (Richard's post) to the Sporto offered for sale by Frank Beck & thought something looked familiar about it ...

- realised it was a car I had considered buying back in ~ 2004 when owned by Frank Gallogly in New Jersey - I'm sure I have the photos/details Frank G sent me (somewhere).

It would be interesting if I have a note of the asking price back then ...

I think it was about $30k Andy and as you know FG was really only in it for the money not the love of the cars.

Regards
Mike

I'm still working on the time machine. When it's ready I'll let you both know.
Was the car physically in NJ and on the road? Climate is rather different from AZ.

To the Original Poster: sorry, not sure any of this is helping!

I've been a bit of petrol head having only ever owned relatively difficult to drive modded cars (light flywheel, big cams or rotary or laggy turbos) and I ride track bikes on race tracks (so I can change gears and quite enjoy it) I'd never thought the Sporto would be much chop.

Having driven over 7k this year in mine it really is a very good thing, particularly as I live in central London but don't misinterpret, my right arm is just as active as in a manual (I have a LHD for all the smart arses out there). It is after all a 4 speed manual gearbox, so the option to put it in "D" isn't really the same. Sure you could put it third and have the torque converter do all the work or you could drive it like a manual just without a clutch. Needless to say I wrap mine around and don't miss the clutch action at all.

Anyway I think they are good but I'd have preferred a manual and its because of that (assuming that people like me and you want these cars and as suggested previously the market mix doesn't change) they'll be worth less. The question is how much less? In my observations from 5% to 20%.

I looked at a 911T for 25k not that long ago in similar condition to yours but manual and the second person to see it bought it. A 911E would surely be worth £30k. But now it's in bits people have to take your word that it was complete. This forum might be more forgiving but others won't be I'm sure. I bought mine in bits and wouldn't do it again, there were so many things missing or wrong... Anyway you might counter it with the extra stuff you have so the risk is reduced somewhat.

I remember seeing a forum member on here asking £65k for his immaculate 911E Sporto (purple911 I think he called the site) and I don't know if he managed it. But then you see this... http://www.bobforstner.co.uk/product/19 ... e-2-4-lhd/

So I reckon in summary you are about right - would've been better if the car was still together but given this forum saw you take it apart, you've got a good chance.

By the way... If you do sell, please don't sell my engine stand with it!! Let me know if you've finished with it as there are others I know that could use it... Cheers Joel

It really would be a shame to sell, as you've already done a lot of the grotty work and as we've said, it's such a lovely, un-messed with shell.

It's a lovely colour, bit different (Sporto), an E (a great engine) all panels there etc. Most of all, in RHD and in the U.K. I don't know but surely it must be virtually the only one in this combo?

I do get the argument though; tricky choice. Anyway, I have an idea.

The sort of end-buyer of a Sporto might well be someone that actually needs one. Witness the C3 sold by Paragon a little while ago: buyer absolutely had to have a Sporto, and was willing to pay well to get one.

I would suggest (and I know I have something of an interest here) that the above buyer is possibly more likely to want a finished car, ready to go. If you continue with the project, you have an opportunity to add value, and any gains you make will, I believe, be be tax free. You could possibly treat it as a savings scheme with a really hefty flat-deposit amount at the end, should you decide to sell.

Every minute you spend on it is adding value whatever, whatever you do.

Forgive my thoughts .

Barry,

You know I love you dearly, but I don't think you should give up the metal sculpting to become my financial advisor.
Because restorations seem to take rather a long time, your scheme makes some pretty hefty assumptions about the relative future values of a flat in London and a 2.2E Sporto. Also you can't live in a Sporto, at least not while it's being restored.

Hands up everyone who has actually made money out of a resto?
Hands down if, truth be told, the resto took ages and the market just moved in your favour while you were faffing about.
And now add in your own time at your normal earning rate... still ahead?
I suspect for most people who need to, say, assemble a huge pile of cash to buy a flat - concentrating on the day job is a better way to get there than restoring cars.

But we're in the gutter of financial considerations again. Let's get back to looking at the stars. Will be a very cool car when done. And there won't be another - once it's sold, that's it for RHD tangerine 2.2E Sporto resto projects, I reckon.

Forgive my thoughts, too.
Cheers, Richard.

Good post Richard. What reason would prompt an owner to pose the original question in this discussion.? Surely it is the reality that this is going to cost more than i thought.?

With the greatest will in the world how can one arrive at a final figure to sell or even restore this car to sell off plan.? Even the experts struggle to give a firm price for there works, and they do these cars day in, day out. A fool and his money.......

All good points indeed. Tricky call to make.

I have to say, personally I have absolutely agonised over selling things in the past. When it's actually happened though, it's rarely as bad as I'm expecting. The very fact I was pondering a sale probably means deep down I knew it was the right thing to do.

The other thing is that often whilst mulling these things over, something comes along and makes the decision for you anyway. Important thing with something that is very hard to get back into is to take plenty of time to be confident as you can you're heading the right way.

We can do whatever with the slot of course; keep as is, swap it back one or two cars, allow a new owner to take it over or whatever. And of course, there's no obligation to take it at all, so whatever is cool .

Thanks for the input guys. I hadn't seen the lovely sporto for sale thats been linked up before now.

Hi Barry, I don't think I ever seriously considered selling it, Just a wobbly moment when I realised I hadn't even seen the car for a couple of months let alone been cracking on with all the filthy work cleaning up components. Combine that with looking through Rightmove at the dreary 1 bed hovel's £350K will get you in London and the dark Idea of selling was formed.

I'm in the same camp as most people having never driven a sporto but one thing I know is i'm looking forward to driving one. I definitely agree with Barry that most people looking for a sporto will be looking for a complete one, infact there was a Piece in Porschepost not so long ago about someone looking for one.

I've seen the figures banded around to restore a 911 and yes they're way higher than what I had budgeted when I bought the car and even now when I have a much better grip on the reality of costs my estimates are way way under the figures that are being thrown around. Maybe when all the little costs that you forget about start coming in i'll eat my words but for now i'm comfortable with my budget and confident that theres some room for profit if I ever did decided to sell once its complete.

8bit-ash wrote: even now when I have a much better grip on the reality of costs my estimates are way way under the figures that are being thrown around.

Hope it works out. But, given that this seems to be real money not play money, do bear in mind that the people throwing figures around are mostly speaking from experience. The little bits do add up, especially as Porsche continues the price gouging and tries to stop their suppliers from selling direct. If you buy genuine Porsche window, door and panel seals it will be a grand, an oil pump is a grand, an oil cooler is ... oh yes, a grand. A front wing... bit over a grand. You get the idea! And that's before you buy any No Longer Available parts from Herr Friesinger!

Anyway, that's more than enough about money - looking forward to seeing further pics of your resto.

Cheers, Richard.

Joelipol wrote:
By the way... If you do sell, please don't sell my engine stand with it!! Let me know if you've finished with it as there are others I know that could use it... Cheers Joel

Hey Joel, Don't worry its safe and i'll be sure to get it back to you or pass it on wherever you want it to go. Hope you're happy for me to hold onto it for a bit longer as i'm slowly but surely working out whether to tackle the engine rebuild myself or not.

inaglasshouse wrote:

8bit-ash wrote: even now when I have a much better grip on the reality of costs my estimates are way way under the figures that are being thrown around.

Hope it works out. But, given that this seems to be real money not play money, do bear in mind that the people throwing figures around are mostly speaking from experience. The little bits do add up, especially as Porsche continues the price gouging and tries to stop their suppliers from selling direct. If you buy genuine Porsche window, door and panel seals it will be a grand, an oil pump is a grand, an oil cooler is ... oh yes, a grand. A front wing... bit over a grand. You get the idea! And that's before you buy any No Longer Available parts from Herr Friesinger!

Anyway, that's more than enough about money - looking forward to seeing further pics of your resto.

Cheers, Richard.

Yes but .... in the last few years DDK has seen the money-no-object, keep signing the cheques type restoration become the norm. You can still work smart though. Perfect example is (and I only mention him as I know him) Jonathan Parr's approach. Keep nibbling away refurbishing every single possible part. A bit one evening, a bit over the weekend and so on. It's amazing how many parts can be overhauled and look fantastic without seeing the nice people at your OPC.

Often an interior can be cheered up without a full retrim, but some deep cleaning, some targeted refurb and so on.

The bottom line is that once you're out of the bodywork and loom, there's virtually no other area of the car that can't be back out and on the bench / kitchen table within a few hours. Therefore if you're being fiscally moderate, there's no crime in trying something that appears O.K. Gearbox? If the oil comes out looking O.K. and it's not full of water, why not give it an external clean, fresh oil and put it back in again. If it's not happy, so what? It's two hours to remove again.

You're absolutely right of course Richard, prices of parts have leapt up, and restorations always cost more than you think. But Ash is a practical, hands-on type of chap that's happy to get stuck in, and he's got the space in which to do it. By doing the myriad of 'mini restos' on the individual parts and sub-assemblies, plus much of the mechanical and all of the fitting up work, there are significant savings possible. The challenge will be to keep motivated enough to do hours on the car after a long week at work, but the trick here is to chip away at the little bits from early on, and build up sub-assemblies so that when a painted shell arrives back, there are lots of big chunks that can go straight back on.

Ash, very pleased to read your post as I know how committed you are to the car. Speak soon .

Hi Barry,
I'm not sure there are very many "chequebook" restos on DDK. Seems most of us like tinkering about, stripping down, refurbing and re-assembling what we can. It's part of the learning process, very satisfying, and often nothing to lose. For example I spent hours this week persuading the original oil level sender to work again. Had I failed I would have needed to buy a new one - nothing (other than my time) lost by trying.
And of course you are right - much better (for all reasons) to keep an original part if possible.
Problem is, if a part is beyond repair or missing, and a visit to the OPC is unavoidable, it's going to cost. Same with used and repro parts - my recent foray into Alfas has reminded my how silly some Porsche parts prices are!
And when we run out of skill and need a professional, many labour rates have also got quite high. Not yours, obviously .

I think that, if aiming for a really high standard of resto, the list of areas where professional is best is fairly long. Metalwork, paint, engine (unless you are really skilled, do you want to risk your matching numbers case?), MFI.
Agree with you re strip down, refurb of minor components, most re-assembly, most interior refit and clean-up. Electrics also simple on these cars. I agree that lots of money can be saved by tackling that stuff hands-on.

Cheers, Richard.

Perhaps I should have said 'more common' rather than 'the norm'

You're right of course, prices have become truely incredible, both for parts and indeed hourly rates.

The point stands though, you can gain significant advantage by undertaking much of the work yourself, and not defaulting to a 'replace as first choice' mindset.

Really looking forward to seeing this car come together, it's a lovely thing.

Barry wrote: The point stands though, you can gain significant advantage by undertaking much of the work yourself, and not defaulting to a 'replace as first choice' mindset.
Really looking forward to seeing this car come together, it's a lovely thing.

Agreed!