DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Just got back on-line after having a replacement router stuck in the (snow-bound) post.

Poor little engine . Mind you, I was always the butt of jokes, building an engine from a collection of water-logged (literally) parts for £1050.

The fact that it lasted four owners, six years (?) and I would guess 10,000+ miles is as much chance as anything. I sold the car on the basis that the engine had had the basics done (all bottom end bearings, set new exhaust valves, sleeved guides, rings, chains, ramps, seals and gaskets and a big service kit, oh yes, and I seem to remember putting on turbo HT lead set as well), but was very much not a 'unlimited budget, built like new' engine.

As I mentioned to James on a P.M., at the time I was absolutely out of money and hated the car with a passion at the time of the engine build (3/4's of the way through the restoration-from-hell blues). The challenges that car threw up were unbelievable, and the state of the two possible engines was the last straw.

The choice was either to abandon the project, or to come up with the most pragmatic solution given my circumstances at the time. Knowing that I would have zero labour costs in the future for a possible 'big(ger) budget' build, I aimed simply to do a sensible minimum overhaul hoping it would get me through three or four years.

Time has confirmed that actually, had I still owned the car, this would have been the case.

I'm amazed that those knackered old heat exchangers were still on it though .

Best of luck with the build James . Be nice to see some good B&P's on there ....

Exactly. You did what you could on the budget you had. Its just amazing the condition of it given it was running so well as you may well remember from your shotgun ride in the heat at CLM2010.

I'm in a similar boat as it would be nicer to refurb my original(?) heads and maybe the B&P's than to replace them with some later/higher spec ones. This would also keep the engine as an E and maybe more so given that it is such an early one but the bottom line for me at the moment is that I can buy decent second hand parts that should also give me a slight performance increase for less money than it costs to refurb my bits. No brainer.

Cheers

James

Oh definitely: it would be nice to have a bit of 'gain' rather than feel that you've essentially just ended up with the same thing, albeit 'the real deal'.

I'd certainly recommend posting your thoughts (together with pics of existing / possible replacement parts) here, as many people here have had to go through similar decision making processes, some with big budgets, many without.

As you say though, I'm, amazed how well it was pulling at CLM: far, far harder than ever I got it, even allowing for the fact that it always feels a bit faster as a passenger. The other thing was that I don't remember seeing any smokiness, or is that just my memory?

Just thought: the reason that I had the valve guides sleeved and not replaced is that there were horror stories at the time of not only the guide being pushed out, but that (thin) part of the head as well.

The sleeving solution seemed to fit the bill at the time, especially as I was assured by several sources that sleeving is quite widely used (and in fact preferred) in industry.

Certainly, when it was done, the new exhaust valves ran in them very nicely. It would be interesting to see just how much wear has occured. I do remember at the time asking if they had been used for air-cooled cars. I can't remember what their reply was, but I'm guessing that water-cooled cars are rather easier on their guide (exhausts anyway) then air?

I'd like to say something on the forum that I've said to Barry in a PM in that it is so helpfull to be able to ask questions about an engine to the original builder so that you can understand what it was built with, why and when. Thanks Barry It makes my job of understanding what I have and how I get to where I want to be engine-wise a lot easier.

To answer your questions, the engine wasn't smoking at all. From compression tests it was at something like 60 psi on cylinder 1 (the one with the bolt) and 120 on number 6 which was unexpected. The others were all 160.

There was a few mm of travel at the end of the valves in the heads. You can see and feel the movement if you put one back in. Putting the same valve in a new guide shows no movement in comparison. We're having new guides in the 'new' heads and have made a decent set of valves from the 2 sets of heads.

Cheers

James

That's interesting, so it looks as though the sleeving for whatever reason, can't cope with the rigours of an air-cooled engine, or perhaps any engine. The company that did them had at the time, used the process for many years. Perhaps they were mainly for non-performance cars . Anyway, sounds as though that's a process that's not applicable to us one way or another.

I'm going to copy a P.M. I sent to James: wouldn't normally, but it's another one that shows my thought process at the time and some other stuff. Just out of interest really, as there's bound to be others out there in a similar situation to the one I was in at the time, and trying to come up with a solution that is right for them.


"I have to say that I expected that the engine would soldier on O.K. when I had it. As a driver, I'm super-soft on my cars, and I was pretty relaxed that the steps that I had taken would have ensured that I could expect a reasonable life out of it whilst I saved for a warts-n-all build. Not only that, but at the time I'd only been in one 911 in my life, and that was when I was eighteen. I didn't know whether I'd like it or not, so at the time it would have seemed a bit unwise (given my finances) to commit to many thousands on an engine I might well have never really used.

Like you though, I always felt that it never pulled that well, although don't forget that when I had done 500 miles or so, and the thing had settled down well, the compressions were actually very good. It didn't use oil or smoke, and therefore it seemed that my decision making at the time had pretty much paid off. As I've said before, I did use top top oil as a safety measure, and made sure that the engine was steaming hot before winding it up.

Like you say, you've made a lot of progress with the car, if fact you are in a very similar position to me at the time: you're well committed to the thing, and in something of a 'no going back' situation, with the only real option being to plow on anyway but in the most financially pragmatic way: ideally steering a course between economy and false economy.

If it was still my engine I would certainly go for B&P's, ideally used but rehoned and with new rings. I'd probably try to retain the heads, but re-guide them. I personally don't know what, if anything, I'd do about the inlet areas: take advice probably. At the time I was merely looking for 'T' type outputs (and indeed guessed and sold as saying that I thought it was putting out around 140 bhp, hence my surprise at the figures you were getting), and so that area on the heads was no problem in my view: it doesn't affect compression, the heads are all the same, and once shielded by the manifold, turbulence is likely to be minimal. In fact the fact that you did get these figures confirms this thought: if they didn't flow, there's no way you'd have seen those figures."

I hadn't read your latest post when I wrote the above, James. If you've sourced another set of heads, then great, that's one part of the equation dealt with .

Gary71 wrote:That's Tim rebuild out the window then

Good luck with the build, glad you are getting it sorted.

Not so, Gary. Tim has all the parts for his 2.4Eish build still intact. I should have asked JohnM if I can borrow his very very nice 2.2E engine for a while had I thought about it. Refusal would still hurt though

Well, I'm upbeat. I have tried and failed to get some S cams for budget money in 3 days. In a few weeks time I'll proably realise this isn't a surprise and that I was mad to think I could, but I had to try. Its just a shame my contingency fund has been drained dry and then some. People aren't kidding when they say it will cost you twice what you thought to rebuild your engine. I had enough to refurb my heads and rebuild not replace most of the top end and rebuild. Ah well, thats life and I'm not bitter even though these words may give that impression. An S spec engine would have been really nice but I know I won't be dissapointed with my E when it is rebuilt.

The engine is awaiting my return and the heads are built. Now we know which cams are going back in it, the build will commence when I get myself to the garage. We have all parts needed to start. I'll try and take pics as it goes back together to both post here and also for a reference to go with the cars history. It's going to be a very busy weekend.

Cheers

James

Good luck James These unexpected surprises our cars hold are always challenging. Striking the balance between doing it 'properly' and getting it back up and running whilst taking the sensible route is very hard.

Unfortunately engine surprises end up being financial rather than just the time surprise my car is throwing my way at present!

Hi James

Congratulations on the good news and commiserations on the bad news.

Not sure you would want my old donkey at the mo, its covered in dust. I do have a set of NOS S cam's sat in my cupboard but the only reason I haven’t put them in yet is that the E cam is great too.

It is difficult to keep a handle on the purse strings when trying to rebuild an engine. I think its best to look at the long game, a good rebuild will add value to your car when most peoples every day transport is loosing them hundreds of pounds a month in depreciation. (mans math's rules) best of luck James and if I can be any help just ask..........with both issues, I am named as mid wife on my youngest birth certificate

Kind Regards

James: are you hoping to be involved with the reassembly? That would be great.

I think the combo that you're aiming for sounds really nice: a bit more compression, but with slightly more friendly cams .

Sounds like everything is moving pretty quickly?

Thanks Gary and John.

The rebuild had to be done professionally now as I won't be allowed the time or money to do it next year either as the missus would try her hardest to convince me to sell which has never been my plan.

Once I feel the linear power from this engine, I'll be grinning from ear to ear and won't need the S cam. I'll then have an engine that is fit to go to Bobs for a power run so I would really like and expect to get more than the 160bhp I had previously on carbs. The results will be interesting whatever happens.

As for finance, I'm reminded of the line "the price is high but the end is near" from the start of Move any Mountain by The Shamen. If all goes well this weekend I'll be driving it home, the long way back, on Sunday and will have almost forgotten all about the stress and issues of these last two weeks.

Mr Barry Carter sorted the bodywork out on mine when it was his P&J and it is still mint and rust free after 6 years and maybe 12K miles later so this engine rebuild should add value to the car in the long run or at least increase my insurance valuation.

Cheers

James

The official spec of my engine is going to be:

Bottom end: 2.4E, rebuilt with new bearings 6 years ago.
B&P's: Used 2.4S, very good condition
Heads: Used 2.7 CIS machined to fit non CIS barrels with 35mm ports, new valve guides all round, all valves checked
Induction: BitzRacing EFI kit = CIS Manifolds (35mm bore), CIS Throttle Body with Megasquirt engine management for fuelling, LM1 WB02 Lambda sensor, Bitzracing fuel rails, High pressure Fuel Filter, Generic cone Airfilter
Heat Exchangers: Very rusty! WBO2 bung in each manifold
Exhaust: Turbo Thomas Custom design 2 in 3 out. Designed to have either the std exit capped or the 2 lower exits capped
Electrics: MSD 6AL, distributor, Mallory coil, Turbo spark plug leads. Spark plugs unknown

Related: The Clutch is barely worn but had no bushes on the arm on the gearbox. We have new bushes for this. Alternator was rebuilt July 2010. Gearbox steam cleaned, old oil flushed and changed. New rings, gaskets, oil filter, oil pipes, nuts, bolts, etc, etc where necessary will be used on the build. The old B&P's and heads will be stored for refurbing in the future, maybe. Because I have CIS manifolds and CIS heads I don't need the custom CIS spacers that Jamie Lipman had made for when he fitted this EFI kit to his car in 08.

Plans for the future? Rolling road session to fine tune and confirm my EFI map is as good as it can get, BHP run at Bobs, Crankfire, S Cams? Who knows?

I'll be helping with the rebuild of this as much as is practical as my garage obviously won't guarantee an engine rebuild if I did it all without them watching me like a hawk. This is another tradeoff as it is faster for them to do it and briefly explain why with me watching and asking stupid questions than them explaining it all and me doing it all under their supervision. Their time = my money and I'm trying to do this to the highest quality for the lowest cost so something has to give...

Thanks

James

James,


Congrats on the good baby news but similarly truly sorry to read about the mishap. I remember very well the sinking feeling of having engine troubles.

Anyhow, rusty heat exchangers..... I don't know if they fit or if they can be made to fit, but I have a set of a 1975 2.7S laying here.. They were a long time ago on Andy Haas' 2.7S impact bumper car but I seem to recall they were apparently of an US spec 2.7. Anyhow, whatever is the case, you can have them if that is any help?

Best regards,


Bert

Thanks Bert,

Long time no see. I'll ask my garage if they'll fit. If not then the rusty ones will go back on either as they are or with MOT style welding to cover the holes.

This build is being financed by overdraft and credit card. I do have savings which will cover this build but don't feel that it is appropriate to use them for this when we have a baby on the way. I'd much rather have a financial buffer for my family and an E spec engine than an S spec engine and have eaten away at my savings. My family, this rebuild and its financing are all my choices. If I appear to have made my bed then be complaining about lying in it then I'm sorry.

Cheers

James

James,

I hope I wasn't triggering a defensive response with the heat exchangers.... I have spend many a day in a similar bed and have been helped out by many a ddk-er in the past. It is merely my empathy and sincerely heartfelt that pre-empted my post.

Anyhow, I'm working newark way so should you want/require/fancy them, their yours. Would love to read the engine rebuild threat should you post it up.

Take care buddy,

bert