DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

I've been absent on here for awhile as work, etc. kept me snowed under but this was one of the first threads I came back to check on and wow, have to say that buck work looks damn impressive, cannot wait to see the first pieces of aluminium getting wheeled out and applied to it

looks good. I knew you'd get a sheet over it asap LOL
Don't let your eye be tricked into thinking it's got too much rake though - the 'horizontal' line in the buck won't actually be 'seen', so is deceptivly strong, and might trick you.

Cheers,

Al

It have been months since i last visited, so much has happened!

Nice tech handshake with trad approach, accuracy with time saving so the trad bit can kick-off.

Do you invent the panel join line (weld lines) as you go along and the panel resists so much you stop the panel and mate the continuation sheet there?

911hillclimber wrote:Do you invent the panel join line (weld lines) as you go along and the panel resists so much you stop the panel and mate the continuation sheet there?

Hi Graham, there are all sorts of thoughts and methods when it comes to placing the welds, and I'm sure no two coach builders would make exactly the same decisions with them.

Broadly though, you'd look to pretty much share the amount of shape between two or more panels, rather than wheeling and wheeling away on just one. As a panel gets bigger, there's more metal to physically hold, more shape to manage and control, and in theory, some potential to over-thin some areas. The opposite of this of course is to end up with a patchwork quilt of tiny panels, so most people aim for something in the middle.

In the case of, say, the front 'wing' area, you might make the bulk of it in four main parts: front outer, front inner (to join to bonnet area), and rear outer, rear inner. This shares the amount of shaping into fairly manageable chunks, without having too many welds to deal with. Having said that, I recently saw a YouTube vid that showed a Lotus Eleven inner portion of front wing all in one, albeit with a super-experienced wheeler. I think the outside was in two halves though.

There are two other things to ponder. The first is how the light falls on the panel, and the other is tapping up the welds. I've recently heard that rather than weld right on the peak of the wing (say), you might weld about 1 1/2 inches inside of it, just so that you're not tapping up right where the light hits the most. Similarly, you wouldn't want to have a weld right in the middle of a return (wing to bonnet 'trough'), as a) the weld would be prone to blowing through, and b) tapping up neatly would be much harder. The solution for this area would be to wheel a little more, and have the join just a bit further into the 'bonnet' area by an inch or so.

You also would try to avoid any welds in very flat areas, as they won't support themselves very well, and tapping up neatly would be more tricky.

Like I say though, all coach builders seem to have slightly different ideas and approaches therefore it would be a dangerous game to say one approach is 'right' and another 'wrong'.

As you can imagine, if you were brilliant at wheeling, and hated welding, you may elect to make your panels bigger and saving some welding time.

Oh yes, when you can, you might try to smooth the welds in the English wheel, rather than using hammer and dolly. This might affect where the joins go, and definitely will dictate the order in which the panels are joined.

Or you could just use GRP.

:0)

Al

You plonker: have you tried to weld GRP?

Well, it's all been happening in camp Okrasa.

Obviously with Stuart's input, the shape of the model has now been scaled up, and a complete buck is on the Special.

The rediscovered impetus is partly as a result of Steve having the opportunity to race the car in the FISCAR series (is that right, Steve?). To see it on the track, dicing with other cars of its period would be absolutely fantastic, and a chance not to be missed.

It's fair to say that in the last two or three years, the Okrasa has played second fiddle to Steve's racing, and more to the point, my Porsche body restorations.

The fact that there's now a buck on the car, all signed off and ready to go, provides a natural point to gather our thoughts and arrive at a sensible strategy that gets the car on the circuit and into the series whilst the chance is there. Realistically I'm simply not going to be able to offer the project enough hours in the next year or so to achieve this. Also, I know that deep down Steve would love the car to be in bare metal, and a little thinner gauge than I'd be comfortable with, what with being a first time builder and all .

The long and short of it is that the car will soon be off to a real, grown-up coach builder, well versed in this type of work. Steve has a short-list I think, and will be visiting some workshops over the next few weeks. We're both comfortable with the decision: I can concentrate on chipping away at my waiting list, and have the nice task of pondering a personal coach building project at some point. Steve can get someone on board who can have one or two people on the car full-time, and therefore have a pretty definite deadline.

It's been a fair old journey, and one I wouldn't have missed for the world. I'm genuinely excited to see how the bodywork is tackled, and to see the shape that our little team as worked so hard on appear in metal. It'll be particularly interesting to see how the interactions between the original car and the new outer skin are tackled. I reckon some of the issues that would have arisen would have cost me a few nights sleep, especially if deadlines were looming!

Anyway, that's me: no doubt I'll stick my oversized beak into this thread now and then, and in the meantime I wish Steve well with the car, and perhaps I'll get an invite to crew for Team Okrasa at a circuit soon .

Barry wrote:You plonker: have you tried to weld GRP?

No, but I did once see a sweeper which caught fire whilst the handle was getting welded and the GRP top cover and water tank caught fire

It looked rather like someone electrocuted the Dulux Dog.

Al

Rather disappointing at not getting to see the technique of the wheel-n-weld, but I can understand the direction now.

Thank you for the explanation on the where to weld or not to the outer panels, I love this kind of thing and I'm in awe at those who can manipulate aluminium to such a precise shape and then repeat it 'mirrored' on the other side.
It's been an absolute treat this thread.

Thank you to Steve, Pandora and Barry!

I'm sure it will be back so we can see the results.

Thanks Graham, and thanks for your support and interest over the last few years: it's really appreciated .

Boo. Hiss. I get the logic but I so wanted to see Barry coachbuilding.

Barry wrote: and have the nice task of pondering a personal coach building project at some point.

Well, He's got the English wheel, so I'm sure in time Barry will find a use for it

Al

How about a long tail for a Riley special....??????

Well the journey that is building your own car takes another twist and turn in the road. As you'll have seen Barry has decided to take a step back from the project which I'm terribly sad about. He's been an integral part of the process for almost five years and delivered so much value, so it's a bit of a blow to be having to find a new coach builder, but I always think in life that these things happen for a reason, even if you can't see it at the time. I think Barry is being typically hard on himself in the post he's made as I think he's more than capable of doing an exemplary job, but I can't change his mind, but onwards and upwards - I'm talking to other coach builders but if anyone has a recommendation on a good quality person who will 'get' this project then drop me a line.

Ian and I spent a couple of hours last week going over the entire car talking about things that need to be sorted to finish the car, to fill the inevitable waiting time before we get to the front of a coach builder queue. And it's a long list! I have decided to race the car: probably in FISCAR Three years of motor racing has provided lots of lessons which we need to carry over to the Special if we're to make it anywhere near competitive. For a start it needs a roll cage so has been booked in with Andy Robinson for a six point cage and to sort the steering wheel column fixture which needs remedying. Ian has also shouldered getting all the mechanicals done, so he's going to sort the exhaust, get a rear anti-roll bar made, sort the refurbishment of the rear Armstrong coil overs, get the wiring ready for installation when the body is done, etc. I'm going to get the brake backing plates ventilated, conclude on a couple of design questions for the body, install a better steering wheel, and get all the latches, catches and myriad of bits and bobs sorted. And send the Shorrock supercharger off for refurbishment. We decided that although it never came with the blower it's an entirely period conversion and will really make the car. We're also going to fit an exhaust in keeping with the blower by fitting four long, mildly tapered megaphones that will exit through the rear bodywork like the Porsche 804: think light, loud, fast Italian and British Specials. It's not a small undertaking to get it installed and running, but with a blower two inches behind my left ear, a right hand gear change, and four megaphones it will certainly be a hoot to drive!

Regular updates to come on the build work….

Cheers,
Steve

remember to add the infils behind the B pillar before showing the model / buck to the coachbuilders, Steve.

At least you are in the right part of the country to find alternative coachbuilders - whevever I've looked thay all seem to be in sussex / Surrey or the wilds of east anglia or Norfolk.

Might be worth asking Mike Brotherwood, the early Lotus guy?

Al