Really cheap 73 RS carrera, be quick. ...

[Ralph]

here is a hot rod with a little Trigger's broom to it and if £70K ok in today's world.

But it's not £70k - it's £295k isn't it?

[911MRP]

At least with Cossies there's a good chance the original shell will turn up buried somewhere on Canvey Island.

Keith's comment reminded me of time when I ended up a RS Coworth from new as a company car back in the late 80s. Wanted a Porsche but 911 beyond my allowed budget so ordered a 944 under the company car scheme. My employer insisted that a sporty 2+2 coupe from Porsche was too flash and said the company policy was a "normal body-style" car. Suitibly chastised and put in my box, I asked politely if ..errm...a Ford Sierra was ok. Yes much more suitable, was the reply. Great-- as a kid growing up watching the RAC Stages in Hamsterley and Kielder Forests, I'd always hankered after an RS Escort, so this would do nicely if I could pull it off without being rumbled. I was sure somone would spot my ruse. The company never realised what was happening -- until car was ready for collection that is -- before I even got to put key in lock of my new company wheels I got a call from a rather harassed sounding person from HR department querying what was with the absolutely HUGE insurance premium. This was height of the Ford Cossie being regarded as the bad boy car, the choice of Ram Raiders and other rogues, at least according to the tabloids with premiums reportedly not far from the retail price of the car. Had the last laugh when the penny dropped on how I'd gamed the company car scheme. CEO was a car fan and saw the funny side of it -- it had been agreed upfront after all

Couple of other colleagues then realised that there was an angle to be had and got Carltons (Lotus) when that model came out, but these guys were much older and more senior staff, so probably unlike me didn't singlehandedly cause a big hike in the company car scheme insurance bill. Enjoyed that car for a few years -- fun and unconventional choice for personal and business use. Never crashed it. Reliable and brisk, consistently warping front discs, however, its weak spot I found.

The Porsche itch remained. Got my 911 in early nineties when that Cossie was returned to leasing company -- still have that same 911 today. Pleased I didn't purchase the obvious then fashionable BMW as to replace the company ...errm Ford Sierra.

Wonder if that Cossie remained unscathed for long? Pity they got that bad boy reputation as when new quite a nice practical car for many situations and could make quick progress if needed plus the Ford with Cosworth combo has rich Motorsport heritage.

[Bootsy]

here is a hot rod with a little Trigger's broom to it and if £70K ok in today's world.

But it's not £70k - it's £295k isn't it?

Exactly!

[simon james]

I'll put a new slant on things.
Presumably the new owner would insure the car as a 2.7RS on an agreed value.
Would the insurance company pick up on the history?
Doubt it. It would be a photo based valuation???
I think you know where this is heading.
What if the car went missing whilst on a trip through Europe? Plenty have, never to be seen again.
The recently relieved ( in more ways than one!) owner could dishonestly profit from this.
Having been recently asked to help in verifying a "ringed" classic, I have had my eyes opened as to just how much dishonesty there is out there.

[Bootsy]

Insurance companies do dig though and an excuse not to pay out a high agreed value would be tempting for them.

[911hillclimber]

I have said IF the car was a £70 price, a nice hot rod in today's climate.

At 250K whatever, it is pretending to be an RS, and if you are willing to spend that on this spec of car so be it.

Never thought about the insurance take on an agreed value for 250K for this car, but if they agree it you will have paid the appropriate premium too!
If the car is stolen (it does look like an RS to a thief?) then you get paid?

It is a value agree by you and the Ins Company and you will have paid the price.

[210bhp]

I think Simon is one step ahead of you. He is looking to make a six figure sum from his insurance company.

I guess this thread has served its purpose. I didn't want anyone from the Ddk ranks diving in and unknowingly becoming the latest victim in the story of this car thinking they had found a bargain.

Regards
Mike

[911hillclimber]

Yes, fair comment and good on you for the thread, someone could be seduced even off DDK and fall foul.

[Nick Moss]

Yes, fair comment and good on you for the thread, someone could be seduced even off DDK and fall foul.

Someone will. Paul Ripley did.

2 words: Due Diligence. Just Google the VIN of any car you are considering buying.

[davep]

Though that one linked to earlier (yellow one sold for 240K) seems similarly astonishing to me - different engine, gearbox and body shell. What are you buying - the carpets?

Yes, what are you buying? Well here is an example. A new model Porsche was being used as a demonstrator by the distributor. A hand shandy posing as an automobile journalist (I believe) damaged the car badly. A new replacement bodyshell was obtained from Porsche, and the car was rebuilt. A couple of years later a brand new car (same model) was crashed and the drive train plus interior was swapped into the previously rebodied car. So now the only thing original to the car was the registration & plates. Moving forward 35 years the current owner decides to restore the car at significant expense. Somehow he is able to find and acquire the original drive train. He also learns that the original body was not crushed, but repaired and back on the road; interestingly, this iteration is forced to use a kit-car registration. So now we have two copies of the same car; one with no original parts except the original registration and VIN on the registration, and the original body with original VIN but non-original drivetrain. The original body kit-car was not for sale at the time, but the owner of the original registration had the idea of purchasing the original body, and reuniting the body & drivetrain with the possibility of adding original registration as well. The replacement body and the drivetrain from the second trashed car would make a complete second car.
So what are you buying? Looks to me like a registration with a parts kit.

[smallspeed]

i know a guy who had an insurance claim denied (total write-off of a brand new 3 series) because he was bragging on facebook about how it happened while racing another road-user.. I'm pretty confident if you insured it as a full-price RS and it got written off / lost they'd try and wiggle out of most (if not all) of the claim!

[911MRP]

2 words: Due Diligence.

Agree with that Nick. A lot easier to find out information quickly on cars these days than in the past. The www plus a lot more people follow cars as they move than in the days of a handful of the old guard who set up registers (Fred, David G and their network in other countries) who did the original research and built up records train spotting style almost a decade pre Gruber and Konradsheim.

The late Olaf Lang factory archivist was very helpful to me when researching and authenticating the example I bought and have kept. The confirmation he sent old school letter by fax and then duplicate in snail mail is worth way more to me than the free to PCGB members CoE (that I had to correct several times). I also spoke with all the established specialists who had worked on and or had long visibility of car: Watson, Sadler/Carr, Ivey, Faure etc -- reassuring they knew the car and its previous owners unprompted. Also got details from DVLA and contacted POs and the selling agent including the guy who picked it up on trade plates and drove it north before registered. Bought a fax machine at home to do pre purchase research quickly before it was sold -- this was pre www. (Don't think DVLA give personal contact details now). Due diligence all for purchase price back then that might today just buy me a set of original wheels plus a few other original bits and bobs at today's nos spare parts prices. Important to validate car is what it purports to be, whatever the asking price.

Staggering if it is the case that prospective buyers do not do their homework dilligentlh given current RS prices that could buy a property, even a substantial property outside the heated SE region.

For those interested more generally in subject of establishing and preserving provenance, I recommend the book by Simeone Foundation "stewardship of automobiles" or a book title to that effect. Collier and Simeone are the authors. Thought provoking book about importance of establishing what a car is and on basis of what exists/ condition, discusses options on how to proceed with it. A very dry read in parts, this book looks to other collectables markets that are much more mature than our fairly recent classic car hobby to draw some useful lessons. While authors are generally promoting the preservation (vs always defaulting to an all out like new or better than new restoration), despite what folks presume about book it doesn't actually discount doing full restorations in some cases. It is proposing evaluating and thinking before defaulting to a full nut and bolt restoration job. The chapter that most interested me is the one about investigating, understanding inventorying the original surviving parts of the vehicle as it left the factory and on that baseline determining the best course of action; also interesting chapters about being able to "read" provenance. Those who know me will be aware that this has set me off investigating and recording all the details of my car vs the original spec. I've had the car nearly 25 years (over half its life) and haven't changed anything major other than servicing -- despite at times it being used for the family daily school run and the shopping car in addition to it being a car used on classic events and track etc. Quite an interesting exercise. I've gained a huge amount of knowledge from working part time alongside my good friend Chris for over three years -- he has forgotten more about early Porsches than most people will ever know! A real privilege (and a great way to meet DDKers, other owners of interesting aircooled Porsche and characters who regularly pass through his unique corner of Willesden. That hands-on practical experience beyond book-learning has rekindled my enthusiasm to know the details about my car.

Even on a relatively common classic car like our early 911s it is possible to establish quite accurately the existing things that have likley been there from scratch due to markings and stamps and specifications particularly by using the information not just from Porsche but period reference information from the suppliers of the equipment in the cars. Bosch etc -- equipment old catalogue reference sources. Also production running changes are documented quite well on 911s of this era so the information helps piece together the originality or not with reasonable certainty.

Even with due diligence it is possible to get caught out by sophisticated operators, but to not bother to do it well seems a rather reckless especially given the asking price of any Pre74 air-cooled 911 of late. Just my tuppence worth.

[gridgway]

Insurance companies do dig though and an excuse not to pay out a high agreed value would be tempting for them.

But then, if the car is insured as per the 'experts' words with an agreed price around what was paid (the market price), there would be no issue surely? If it got to need a legal opinion in a fight with an insurance company, that has been done already.

Ironically (at least in the Alanis Morrissette sense) the very report that scuppered Paul Ripley's claim was what he used to sell the car on (if I have got that right)!

Graham

[Nick Moss]

Ironically (at least in the Alanis Morrissette sense) the very report that scuppered Paul Ripley's claim was what he used to sell the car on (if I have got that right)!

But it didn't work then, he only got £55K against an estimate of over £100K.
I'm not sure if anyone else saw the report, but virtually every answer to me was justification that it wasn't the original car. I'm not sure there was even one part original to the car. The VIN was badly restamped, wrong engine, wrong gearbox, ally trailing arms, probably non-original seats and interior if a race car as claimed, although I don't remember that from the the time this was all going off.

[KS]

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