Crash Test - Oh Blimey!

Old-Bugga · Post by **Old-Bugga** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:53 pm

http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_seit ... _video.mpg

Just think, we take off all that nice steel and replace it with fibreglass!

I had to laugh when I looked inside my doors and saw that the side impact protection consists of a bit of 2x2 fibreglassed in.

Best bit of advice I saw was on one of the American forums. "Treat driving a speedster replica as no better than driving a motorbike" Seems to be a wise move!

Droog · Post by **Droog** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:19 pm

2x2 sh*t you must have the delux model???

beachcomber · Post by **beachcomber** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:41 pm

Well well Old Bugga - obviously never seen inside various speedboat [ hydroplane hulls then?
GRP fabricators have been using "timber" encased in GRP matting for years as a tried and tested method of strengthening GRP panels. Ditto the original Catamaran hulls - timber formers bonded into the GRP - even Ellen McCarthur's Cat used a similar system [ albeit with carbon Fibre ].
If you are of the generation I think you might be, then you'll also remember with fondness various WW2 aircraft that used wooden formers and stringers covered in linen!!! To be honest - they DID have an additional coating or two of "Dope" to give added strength.

I had a 30' "Revenger" Power Boat that used a 520ci. Chevy engine - yep you guessed it - timber strengthening battens and formers inside the hull.

Not only will the "Timber" SIP's give you REAL additional protection, but will also allow the doors to close with a satisfying "Clunk", rather than the hollow clang of unsupported GRP.

I'd be MORE concerned at the protection offered by a cut 'n shut chassis so beloved of car ringers - but that's another story / argument.
beachcomber

Old-Bugga · Post by **Old-Bugga** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:28 am

Cut and Shut.......Imagine anyone doing anything like cutting and joining together two bits of chassis.........then bolting on a fibreglass shell....oh...eh.......I'd better stop before we even start mentioning SVA and un-modified chassis........argh!!!!!!!

At what point does chassis shortening become cut and shut? Does it not count if you say it quickly?

PS-I'm only 37...........admittedly, a pretty well worn 37 but 37 all the same!!!

Oh Hang On...I must be getting older...I've just noticed that I've become a "Seasoned" Poster

beachcomber · Post by **beachcomber** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:14 am

Perhaps we should make that "Young Fecker" then?
Sorry to prematurely pre-age you O-B, I guess it was the tag that threw me off!!

OK - now you HAVE got me started [ in the nicest, tongue in cheek way ].

15 years ago I was involved in an MOT station, all went smoothly, usual "new brake pipes sir", "that outrigger needs a bit of attention" - quite MUNDANE stuff. Then one day we had an RS Escort in for a mot. It had quite obviously been cut and shut across the middle [ 'ish ]. In line with then current instructions we took the test no further and impounded the car as "unroadworthy" for further instruction. In this particular instance the car fell into the "grey" area - it hadn't been "rung" as such, but was quite obviously made from two cars. No CRIMINAL act at this stage and still NO connection with our favourite Replica - YET.

Some 3 years [?] or so later [ sorry O-B but I AM old and senile ; memory fade] there was a directive and an intensive testing and advertising campaign aimed at the general public and the trade, warning about the dangers [ physical ] of such practices. Even to the degree of taking several makes of car [ one was a BMW ] two models of each. One completely standard and the other "cut'n shut". They were then subjected to controlled crash testing. IN each test the C'nS car sustained 40% MORE damage / intrusion and were 60% MORE likely to cause the occupants SIGNIFICANT injury / death than the standard unmolested car. One of the cars actually split wide open in the side on test [ the BMW, I seem to recall ].

So, to our favourite Rep. No O-B, whichever way you look at it - IT IS C'nS, NOT "chassis shortening". That term doesn't actually exist in any official document [ outside of rep manufacturers instructions]. AND YES, if the SVA looked at their own guidelines - the resultant "Chassis" is R A D I C A L L Y altered.

Now then, have your chassis C'nS by a reputable manufacturer / chassis prep. company and you have the best and most professional method of producing what is basically - let's be kind - a fowned upon activity.

But what of all those DIY efforts? " Just bought a Halfords MIG welder and will rule the World" brigade?
Personally I would NOT sit my ass in someone else's abandoned [or finished come to that ] project WITHOUT checking the construction VERY thouroughly.
Most current 356 manufacturers have enough engineering nouse to know that the original Beetle MONOCOQUE has been seriously compromised by throwing away the part that gives 70% of the strength and integrity to the original car - ie - the Body. Is that skimpy, well designed [?] sub-frame going to put that 70% back? Oh yes, and don't forget that will [ 100% ] only bring us back to the safety levels of a Saloon car - not a convertible. Scuttle shake anyone? And what about that centre tunnel, here's a little test for you to carry out - Drill a small hole ANYWEHERE on the underside of the tunnel from the garlever forward [ unless it's new / Mexican ] and I GUARANTEE you will get covered in a reddish powdery dust - that's rust to you and me and they DO rust from the inside out.
So here's a tip - I completely agree with the sentiments about "might as well ride a motorcycle" - but would you take your Wife, girlfirend, boyfriend, CHILDREN on a motorcyle????
Mind you, then there's the Banham method????????????????????????

In the meantime O-B, maybe better to increase that 2" x 2" to 4" x 4" !!!!
Anyone remember the all WOOD construction Marcos??
OOps, time for the medication.
beachcomber

corduroyboy · Post by **corduroyboy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:28 am

Cheers for that fellas! I was looking forward to driving my first Speedster replica and now instead I think I will go and lie down in bed. With a crash helmet on. And a bit of 2x2 by my side.
As for my rust reinforced '59 - that's staying in the garage!

beachcomber · Post by **beachcomber** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:26 am

Hi Courduroyboy
Don't wish to be alarmist - you should have seen some of the death traps that I WILLINGLY

drove / rode IN MY YOUTH - ie before I knew better / self preservation took hold.

All I'm suggesting is that you have a good look around your project - and if you REALLY don't have the engineering knowledge - pay someone else [ if neccessary ] to do it for you and give you a report / advice. £150 'ish well spent in my view. Beware the "mate down the pub" advisor - this is potentially your life / your loved one's [ could be one and the same ] we're talking about here. Me, I'd rather spend the £150 having a report and then save up for the finishing accessory. And then, LISTEN TO / HEED the advice given.

The very early Riesner and thus APAL [ and thus, and thus,........] ALL had a pressed metal and box section "sub-frames", which [ according to which splash ] bolted / bonded / rivetted [ yes, I did say rivetted] between the "CUT AND SHUT" chassis and the body. They had as much integrity as Mandelson and all the strength of the original "7 stone weakling".

Most of the current "premier" kit / car providers have improved upon this method significantly - some going to great lengths to make the underpinnings extremely strong and safe.

However, some of these kits have been around in Europe and the UK for up to 23 years?????. I can see a rush of applications for engineer's reports!!!!

Beachcomber

corduroyboy · Post by **corduroyboy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:40 pm

Hi Beachcomber, far from being alarmist, I think you are offering sound advice

I am acutely aware of the dangers involved and having a cowboy-built car doesn't bear thinking about. It is definitely something I need to check, although I am confident that the Speedster I have bought has been put together properly - It is the Aquamarine Speedster that 'Gone in 60 Seconds' was building.
Old-Bugga - am I right in thinking you have an M&W Speedster? What chassis reinforcements have you got?
Nevertheless, full race-spec cage here we come

Old-Bugga · Post by **Old-Bugga** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:30 pm

Ya bunch o southern pooofs!

Am hard me, besides, I've been working on a seperate project to ensure that I can drive my car in complete safety.

Seriously-You got what looks to be a cracker of a car from James. I was sniffing around it at one point but he decided not to sell. Certainly would have meant a lot less work for me. Never mind, I'm having fun!

I think no matter how good the subframe we'd all be goosed in a roll!

corduroyboy · Post by **corduroyboy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:19 pm

First time I've ever been called a Southerner!

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a Speedster being rolled? Must've happened at some point

Old-Bugga you may well have a market for your Speedster driving overalls!

beachcomber · Post by **beachcomber** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:48 pm

C/Boy / O-B.

I've seen cars that have been involved in Straightforward accidents and also 2 that rolled.

Not sure you want to hear this, but -

One was involved in a 70 mph coming together on the motorway with a van { Astra ]. the Speedster suffered GRP damage to the front quarter, headlamp bucket , etc. and was back onthe road after a corner graft and respray. The Astra had to be trailered away.
The second was a rear end [ blimey didn't know Speedster braking was that goood!! ] and although the GRP was simply "fractured" - the so called subframe broke it's welds and buckled - actually causing MORE damage than the original shunt.
Now - those of a weak disposition - READ no further.

The first that rolled - a simple roll - car went up a bank [ 15 mph ? ] and rolled gently down. EVERYTHING level with the doors was wiped off - w/screen, hood, side windows - the lot.
The second was in France - Le Mans to be precise, the car rolled into a fast corner on the Bugatti circuit - the driver was thrown out [FORTUNATELY as it happened] not only was everything wiped off down to the door tops - but both doors AND boot / bonnet came off. It was like going back to the basic kit. The worrying part was that the chassis bent in the middle [ yes, where it was CUT 'N SHUT ] and the driver "A" post collapsed [ welds broke ].

However, I guess you would want to take precautions in ANY convertible car. Basic soundness of the underpinnings would be #1, and maybe a roll bar - removeable possibly?

O-B's race overalls are looking a better by the minute! I think I feel a roll cage coming on for my 550 - who started all this anyway???!!!
Beachcomber
PS - O-B I'm half Scot half "Southerner" - can you be half a poof?

corduroyboy · Post by **corduroyboy** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:10 pm

Wish I'd never asked!

Removeable 'cage sounds interesting - seriously. Have you seen any?

beachcomber · Post by **beachcomber** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:16 pm

Hi C-Boy,
Yes - several in fact. MOST if not ALL APAL style subframe kits have a relatively strong cross beam that runs just under where the rear seat front edge is. Note - I say relatively. A roll bar [ single hoop] is normally installed here. If it is to be removeable [ why? ], then again, not a problem. This is somthing we have carried out quite successfully in the past where there has to be a compromise between - "period correct" look and self preservation / track day / parades.

This involves a substantial square plate attached to a piece of tube that acts as a socket for the roll bar. However, in truth the bar should have a forward or rearward brace to be really efficient - say down to the centre tunnel.

This needs to be borne in mind if you are fitting a hood - obviously.

It really depends on the "theme" of your car - if you're going "Outlaw" then no probs. Otherwise, it's down the compromise route.

Obviously a bit more of a problem on an existing car, as the rear upholstery / carpet must come up - a section of GRP cut out - welding, making good, etc.,etc. If you are in the process of building the car then again - no probs to incorporate the above.
Any queries don't be afraid to ask
beachcomber