Okrasa Special

[Nige]

I actually Googled 'Lycra' for a suitable image to post for reference, I of course found one easily enough but then realised Google Safesearch mode was turned to off and I thought better of it.

[early_911]

OT - but BMW made a car clad in polyurethane-coated Spandex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_GINA

[Nige]

Yeah that's similar stuff it's used often for exhibition displays. Only problem is can be too clingy and kind of goes concave between the structural parts, paper or a less clingly material will tend not to do this.

All a bit like a Zeppelin on wheels.

[Barry]

As it happens, it doesn't matter. Back at my parent's place we've still got a newspaper end-of-roll. When I say 'still got', this is because as kids, my brothers and I used to use it for drawing. Therefore it must be thirty or thirty five years old now .

It's plain white, obviously non-printed, and I'm sure will do the job just fine.

The use of the FT is simply because that's what I get (now and again anyway).

I had pondered heat-shrink film, but then the wire would show more than paper anyway.

TBH, if we get to a point where the thing looks right in paper, it'll only look better in ally.

On the other hand, if it's doesn't look right in paper, putting in ally might improve things, but won't make it right either.

[Nige]

Barry stop rambling and get on with it

[Barry]

I'm now back from Coventry, and all wheeled out for now.

With the Special I guess we're waiting to hear the last few forum opinions (I think Steve was going to put it up on Samba as well), and for Steve to give the thing a damn good looking at.

I've said I won't be up there this weekend anyway, so that gives Steve a bit longer to come up with anything he'd like changed / modified.

After we've roughed out any changes in wire, I'll fill in the other side and re-surface the whole thing in (probably) plain paper, and get the thing outside for a final viewing.

If O.K., I'll then start to add a load of stations through the whole design, and these will confirm that the thing is symetrical. There will also be some areas that need to be formed in solid ply / MDF, which will allow me to form the metal directly on or into, these zones.

[911hillclimber]

Have you found a real cast English wheel yet Barry?
I was impressed with even the small fabricated steel ones at the Classic Show.
As long as you are using alloy I would think the small fab ones are ok?

Really looking forward to the fabrication stage.

[Barry]

Funny you should ask that Graham.

I've been offered the most fantastic top-of-the range Edwards, fully rebuilt with reground wheels and everything. Trouble is that it's £2800, which is pretty toppy even for an Edwards of that size. A couple of years ago, £1500 would have been a lot for the same machine. My gut is that it's value today is around £2000, but my instinct is to hang on as something else will crop up.

On the course, they agreed, and indeed they may well be disposing of a couple of their Kendricks, but again will be £1750 plus VAT, plus delivery, albeit in re-painted and good running order. Still, lots of money for Kendricks.

Anyway, I was just thinking that perhaps I'd buy some new wheels for my own fabricated machine (which has a very stiff and efficient frame) when I got the tip-off on a tiny Keetona cast wheel. I went to visit it this evening (on a chicken farm, obviously ), and there it was. A funny little thing, barely 20in throat, but very heavily built. A very odd top and bottom wheel, and very unusual bottom wheel adjustment using a series of gears running through the stand. Never seen anything quite like it.

The top wheel's had it, and there's only one bottom wheel, and that's an odd shape anyway. I came up with a master plan, which is to modify both my fabricated wheel, and this one, and then order a Justin Lee Baker wheel set with two anvil cradles. This way, the new top wheel could go on the Keetona, and the anvils can be shared between the two (one here, one at Steve's workshop).

Anyway £50 (fifty) quid bought it, I collect tomorrow. PLEASE NOTE readers, I'm regarding this latest as an additional wheel, but not THE wheel, therefore I'm still very much after a full sized cast iron wheel, either restored or a project. Upto £2000 for a really good one I would think fair.

[911hillclimber]

That sounds a plan!
I've read that a 42" throat is deemed the ideal, but surely you only need that for a bonnet/boot size panel? (maybe a door skin..)

Frost sell a cast frame with wheels for a huge £5K. You need to roll a lot of sheet to get that back over a lifetime.

Is this a case of invest to do the body and sell after to re-coup the money (ish)?

£50 sounds a real bargain and worth a bit of experimentation for a while.
What a great project this is!

[Barry]

Yes 42" is pretty much the ideal, as most bonnets and roofs can be done then. In fact you can do panels larger than the throat anyway, as you swap sides half way through the panel. Much harder though, as you don't get that nice rythm all of the way through. I reckon I could get away with a slightly smaller one if it cropped up though: 30 or 36in would probably be enough, although any sized wheel in cast is virtually imovable anyway, and an extra foot or so isn't going to make a huge difference in workshop-space terms, so the ideal would be to hang out for the best size really.

My thought was that this one had to be bought whatever, but the idea is that if I can find a 'proper' wheel, it would then be a keeper. Therefore this short-term solution is ideal, as I'd do the bonnet and boot areas of the Special last anyway, by which time I'd hope that the 'real' wheel would have been found.

In the meantime I've organised a trailer for the morning, and the chap who's sold it has a tractor with foreloader. It bolts down onto an incredibly heavy stand, so I'm hoping we can crack the bolts off and get into into some bits, ready for moving and restoring.

All good stuff, and it can join my six ton flypress I picked up two weeks ago, and the folder (another Keetona product) that arrived a little while ago.

It's all the sort of stuff that if it crops up, especially locally, and particularly at the right price, you've just got to grab and pronto.

I'll keep the word out about the main wheel, and something will crop up sooner or later I'm sure.

Running out of things for my wish list at this rate . Ooh, I know: plasma cutter. Edwards full sized swager. Anvil stake dollies. Startrite metal bandsaw .... hmmm, perhaps I'll be alright for things to look out for after all .

[Barry]

Oh yes: I've now heard two completely conflicting opinions on the Frost cast wheel:

1) That they are incredibily hard and unforgiving, and nowhere near enough spring to the frame. This then means that because no sheet of metal is truly dead flat (it has slight variations in thickness due to the rolling process, albeit a thou or so, or even microns to mix my systems), a wave can be set up when you start to wheel it. Thinking about it, you often 'set' a panel by wheeling it very lightly before you start putting real shape into it. I wonder if this is why, to gently work out these variations?

2) That they can be over-stretched (seems to me to be the opposite of the above), and therefore go out of true.

Seems a bit odd to me I have to say, and you do see a few of them about. If I see one somewhere friendly, I'll have to ask for a go on one to get the feel.

The Edwards I've been offered is almost the same: hollow section cast, and no-one I've spoken to has ever seen one quite like it, they're usually a solid spine of 'I', or upside down 'T' sections. TBH, That's why I'm holding back on it: if it was the conventional one, I'd probably go for it and hang the expense.

[Barry]

Sorry Steve, we seem to have turned this thread into 'English Wheel with Slight Hint of Special' .

Hopefully the balance will be redressed very soon .

[911hillclimber]

The tools are a huge part of the success of the body. Facinating insight for me (and others I'm sure)
If the roller contact centres permanently go off centre i would imageine a smooth panel would be very hard to roll.

Good luck getting the bruiser home today.
Sorry for the thread drift everyone!

[steve wright]

Crikey, I never knew there was so much involved in bending a bit of metal . I'll look at the kitchen saucepans a bit differently from now on!

Anyway, I'd ignored the Special over the past two weeks (got the hump with the thing to be honest) as I knew Barry was right about the front not being quite right, if you know what I mean, but I couldn't figured out why.

It was great to see all the input and suggestions from everyone, which I have to say was great. It's wonderful to be able to share the development of the car with this community. However nothing (DDK, looking at books and magazines, etc) seemed to give me that "Eureka moment" until today when I glanced at an early 60's Ferrari and noticed that side-on the bonnet was far more flattened than the Special, giving the latter a bit of a nose job and contributing to the "clamshell look". I suddenly did a double take of the Abarth put up by Louis356 on page 17 which shows it quite nicely. I'd been thinking we needed to lengthen the nose, but that's the wrong way to tackle the problem. What it needs is for the bonnet to be flattened slightly, the leading edge of the wing pulled into the centre line ever so slightly so a little more of the lower half of the front wheel shows (i.e. the headight moved in towards the centre line of the car), and the wings need to be widened but without widening the body (i.e. the bonnet needs to be narrower). Although the wheels are relatively narrow (just 4.5 inches), the wings are very narrow in comparison with others of the period. We're not talking much, probably an inch I guess. I've also drawn foglamp covers on and widened the air-intake by a couple of inches which has also transformed things a bit.

Unfortuantely it was so cold up there today that the camera battery gave up the ghost so I've no pictures but I hope this gives some idea of where I think things now need to go.

I'm taking a day off work on friday Barry to concentrate on the Special and try to conclude the decorating of the workshop, so if you want to catch up and chat, I'll be there all day.

Thanks again for all the input everyone - a truly collaborative effort!

Cheers,
Steve

[Macaulay]

Great Steve, sounds like you've found the solution to the front.
I tried to picture it in my mind and it looked great, go for it!