Okrasa Special

911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:13 am

Gulp!
I'm up against the Hi Tech boys here.

I will do a few of my ideas in pen on paper, early 60's UK special styles (that saw the roots of Lotus/TVR and an awful lot of others post war bloom).

If Barry is doing the tin-bashing then we could be a bit adventurous.
If you are willing to make a wood buck and 'glass a shape then curves to match Sophia Lorein's can be considered.....

If it were me making the body, then a little more rustic might be wise.

So:
Kharmann roof, mid-engined and very special, keep the skinny wheels/tyres and cover the engine rather than a bulkhead in front of it to the roof so keeping the open sides of the roof profile.
Low to the ground, 6'' dia headhights or VW's? The VW's are 'signature' and iconic.
Clam type body front and back would be good and certainly practical to get to theat engine. Boot space in front access too.
Kamm tail comes to mind as very period.

Great fun!

steve wright · Post by **steve wright** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 pm

hey 911hillclimber, I like the ideas! I'm trying to convince Barry to do the bodywork but he's playing coy and shy.... While I'm under no illusions about the complexity of the work I think I can get it at least to a stage where I can hand the car to someone and say "I'd like that built please". The feedback so far seems to be "nice project but i don't want to be responsible for translating what's in your head into ali, only for you to not like it", so getting as close as poss I think is key.

In terms of ideas I thought about buttresses from the rear body up the c-pillar aka 250LM or Dino, along with longer 904 style headlamps. I have a set of high wattage 6v units from a KG that had them factory fitted which I have since converted to 12v, so given the Special is still 6v I'll probably use those. I need to mock them up as they may be too big.

I'll post photos with the 550 bodywork attached in a few weeks - I've mocked it up and it completely changes the look of the car.

Cheers, Steve

steve wright · Post by **steve wright** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:34 pm

just re-read you post 911hillclimber... were Kamm tails in existence in the early 60's. I know Porsche were experimenting with them on the 906, 910, etc but they were 1966 onwards. Were manufacturers building them in as integral parts of the design up to the early '60's? Of course if they were then I would love to include one - Barry willing....

Ian 2.2S · Post by **Ian 2.2S** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:03 pm

steve wright wrote:just re-read you post 911hillclimber... were Kamm tails in existence in the early 60's. I know Porsche were experimenting with them on the 906, 910, etc but they were 1966 onwards. Were manufacturers building them in as integral parts of the design up to the early '60's? Of course if they were then I would love to include one - Barry willing....

No problem Wunibald Kamm was a German aerodynamisist working in the 30s. Earliest design to be described as having Kamm bodywork was a 1940 BMW 328 Mille Miglia Coupe. So if you fancy that style - do it.
Ian

911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:32 am

There! These features are period, and for you/builder easy to make.

If this car was in my garage I would be all DIY, but I'm like that. A good bloke with an english wheel, sheets of alloy and deft with tinsnips will work wonders, but my approach would be to make the car over a simple 'bird-cage' steel frame made from thin wall tube section, about 1mm wall thickness so pliable to a degree.
You can then form a basic shape very much along your thoughts. I would beware of dreams of making a 904, and i think the original builder would be warey as he was an individual, not a follower in my mind.

The bodies of the era seem to fall to two ways, alloy panels over a frame (ie Lotus 6/7) and f'glass bonded/bolted to a frame (TVR/LotusElite)

For them in the 60's (and you now?) there is a considerable cost involved in time for the latter, but a far more graceful result.
If you can live with an early 60's special, gentle curved slab sided (which does not have to be Land Rover'ish!) will be practical to make, easy to get symetry and low-tech to realise. There are more people who can work this way too.

You will get pop rivits (not exactly hidden on your chassis) but they can be 'lost' by skillfull planning by and large.

You will get something from the period though!

What was the original builders intent? What was on his mind when he hung the Ghia top in place and stood back?

Just to make you think:

My Lola was raced in the 80's as a Skoda bodied, 500 bhp mid engined car and was crashed. Later in the 80's a special Ghia body was taken off a special mould (pro made) and the car raced again. Note the slab side approach. This shell was a one piece 'bubble' as it was a race car, but it could be made to work on a chassis such as yours. The wheel base is 92'' incidentally, almost exactly as a 904/908/917 etc

A black racer with this body on it exists today, the driver owns the moulds that exist today!

F'glass gives you that great front aspect (looks good to me!) and the simple sides seems to blend with the curves to because of that roof line. The original builder had a good eye I think.

Later today i will sketch how I would see/do it, but it is you who has to outline what you want, the fabricator has to interpret this and you have to trust/accept what he saw/heard in your brief to him. If you have watched Overhaulin' on TV with Chip Foose you will know what I mean. He is the master of interpretation and execution.

I do hope you are not offended by this essay, but in posting youe special there was bound to be some who will latch on to it!

Graham.

ps: forget the 747 esc rear spoiler!

Paul @ P R Services · Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:07 am

911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:29 am

Just my very rough sketches on how i would 'do' this great little car.

Again, based on small tube frame, alloy/steel sheet panels and some very gentle curves.
All mig weld/pop rivit simple.

Doors are there hung in conventional manner (nick the shells off
a simple car (MG Midgit) and reframe/skin so you get the hinges/locks).

I've assumed no side windows to keep it simple and to use those fab Ghia roof curves!

Make sure all panel lines are not boxed, always have a free edge (ie doors pass to the bottom of the shell, no seen sill!)
If you are skilled, make the front tilt forward to have storage space/access.

Anyway, a bit of fun for 30 mins. Must get to the garage to carry on welding my Porsche special (you are not alone)

Graham.

steve wright · Post by **steve wright** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:40 am

Hi Graham, thanks for posting the photos and doing the sketches, they're all good inspiration. I like the front treatment in your sketch, very Alfa Romeo GTV-like and the top edge that runs the length of the car is reminiscent of the Razoredge Karmann Ghia based on the later typ 3 running gear. The original builder (David Small) always intended to body the car in aluminium, with 550 based styling as the car is built to those dimensions.

Interesting your reference to making a profile in small diameter tubing, you're not the first person to suggest this. Why is this needed? I've been looking at originall Porsche 550 and 718's and they both seem to have a tube chassis with single skin bodywork "hung" onto it. In places it's sandwiched to attach it obviously, but there are no smaller tubes off the main chassis, maybe I'm not looking closely enough or in the right places?

yours in ignorance and confusion! kind regards, Steve

911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:22 pm

I think there is a term for the tube/skin construction, but cannot recall it atm.

You are right that many a constructor made the tube frame (easy to manipulate and make symetrically) and also to get the stree points sorted (door hinges/latches/bodywork attachments etc) and then some clever soul skinned the thing having a tube frame to come off ot brace to.

This is an exacting skill make no mistake!

It was for this reason that people went to the new-fangled fibre glass which gives the ability for complex curves and shapes, huge structural strength and economic one-off costs. It nearly crippled Lotus with the Elite, hence the simpler Elan etc.

To do a 550 take and get it to fit will nead a buck to be made, hung off the car itself and either a mould taken/body made or a body skin placed over the buck and an awful lot of bodywork made to smooth it all out.

You have probably gethered now why the original builder stopped and why nobody have done the body yet!

Much easier would be to buy a 550 replica body (roadster) and mate to the car/roof. You will get the desired result much quicker....

As i said, the sketches were just my take on the car. I hope you get stuck-in and get the car on the road in the shape you feel is right to the concept and what is in your dreams!

Lots to do.

Graham.

Ian 2.2S · Post by **Ian 2.2S** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:49 pm

911hillclimber wrote:I think there is a term for the tube/skin construction, but cannot recall it atm.

Superleggera

Ian

911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:11 pm

I thought that was it, but was to nervey to say it incase I was wrong!

Biggest problem I image is to find a suitable thinwall/small dia tube roller for those long gentle curves and the tight ones like the wheel arches.

I think the owner of the project will go f'glass.

Rustbucket · Post by **Rustbucket** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:26 pm

Your drawings remind me a little of the Porsche custom done on 'Chop Shop'
which I thought was pretty cool (above). The guy used 2 Porsche 944's to make a cool custom for David Ginola...
The photos on the site are pretty poor as if you look the final car looks much better.

Id really like to have a go on yours !

steve wright · Post by **steve wright** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:49 am

We serviced the Special recently and it was more like an archaeological investigation! First up was a check of all the wiring, plugs and fuel lines. Most turned out to be okay, with very little corrosion, although for obvious reasons we changed all the fuel and brake lines. The original sparkk plugs had a lot of corrosion on the tops so they were changed, while we did a visual inspection of the carbs to ensure nothing had dropped down them. Engine and gearbox oil were next - both were wonderfully clean and honey coloured. While the oil was viscous when we unscrewed the sump plug, when we took the cover off the remaining oil wobbled on the strainer like jelly. We pumped plenty of new fluid through the brake system to flush out the old fluid, and tried both pedals expecting neither to work. To our surprise the seals in the slave and master cylinders held up well. We checked the tappets which were all fine, did a visual inspection with a torch into the crankcase to check for corrosion as best we could and found this
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911hillclimber · Post by **911hillclimber** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:54 am

x 10

Graham.

Binjammin · Post by **Binjammin** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 pm

Great stuff, i'm looking forward to seeing this one come together. would be especially sweet to see the original design/builder sat in it upon completion 50 years on

and see what he makes of your endeavours.