356c Project - How Much is Reasonable to pay?

[Strictly]

Hello!

I really want a 356, but i have done since the first moment i saw one 16 years ago, so no real change there!

The difference now is i have some money stashed (it was for a house, but that looks like that will pay to wait another year!!), so I can afford to buy something but not sure what.

Ok, heres the question. And I appreciate without any info or pictures its going to be a quite difficult to answer. I just need some ball park figures, i'll explain why in a minute....

Ive found a 1965 356c Super 90 Coupe in Belgium (so its LHD). I havent got any pictures yet, but apparently it was stripped for a restoration and never put back together.

The reason why im asking, is because my cousin has come accross it, and the chap has told him to make him an offer. The chap knows their worth something, but like myself dosent know what. This is where i need your help!

Please read the next bit, and then give me a rough idea of a fair price now, and a fair price of what it would be worth when finished, assuming a very good, but not concours standard of restoration (i.e imagine yourself working on it heart and soul for a good 12 months taking the time to do a very good - superb, but not neccesarily exact nut and bolt perfect job)

All of the bodywork has been done (its mostly in primer) with no welding needed, just a respray, and then putting the car which is in card board boxes back together.

The engine is a runner, and all numbers match. Apparently everthing is there (it was complete when it went in for a resto) and all the work has been done on the shell, but the chap is getting on a bit, and dosent really have the enthusiasm to finish it (thats where i come in).

Ive been working on VW for the past 16 years, and Porsche for the past year or two, so i know I can tackle the project in terms of tools, knowledge, skills and dedication (im also no stranger to god forbid any rust!).

Thanks for taking the time to read this far, and I look forward to your reply.

Luke

[Bertroex]

Pfew Luke,

Thats a difficult one, because you have to "trust" the seller that all the parts are indeed in the boxes and that the car was complete in the sense how porsche delivered it and not to his ( maybe limited specialist) knowledge. Unless you take a 356 C specialist with you, I'd imagine it will be difficult to judge the purchase.

Secondly, if you have been working on cars, you know what standards you want to achieve. Everyone can bolt on new panels, proverbially speaking, but it is different from restauring a car in the way that Porsche produced it.

Furthermore, being a Belgian myself, the standards I have seen are rarely up to the exact, caring and correct standards that are seen here in the UK. Even if you are not dealing with a belgian bodger, he still might have missed obvious things and you end up stripping the car completely and spending time and money rectifying the "restauration".

Have a look at Helen's thread on restauring her and Larry's white 356. Caveat emptor with your 356 and the rule of thumb is: it is never going to be fast, cheap or straightforward.

Bert

[Helen]

almost an impossale question to answer.

bought my 356c(RHD) in a similar state. I paid around £11k for it. i would pay less for a LHD.

i then had boxes and boxes of bits to go through. and found that some parts had got damaged while in storage or no longer worked. so these had to be replaced.
All the wiring was aged so we decided to up-grade it all to 12V. this is not a cheap option as we then had to have most of the instrments and lights up-graded too.

the engine proved to have been DIY repaired over many years and after several attempts we have finally handed the whole thing to Andy Prill to completly re-build and up-grade.

up-holstery. had gone crisp and stuffing perished. so all had to be replaced.

Total bill (is still running up) is around £40k. obviously we have had others do the work for us, if your able to do most o the work yourself then you could proberly half our bill.


worth it ? Hell yes. i now have a car i Know has no rust or filler and once Andys finished with my engine its going to be sweet to drive too.

[Strictly]

Thank you from both of you that is great advice. I hadn't considered the 6v/12vt upgrade, and thats a good point about all the bits not being there or no longer working. Or the possiablity of having to redo the work.

I will go and have a look sometime soon (hopefully next weekend) and if the price is right buy it. I'd rather a RHD, but well LHD is just might have to be!

Either way I want one, and im happy to take it back to bare metal to see exactly what the level or restoration is. Hopefully at that point I can just respray it, but your right i need to be prepared. I'm always wary of buying a car in primer! I will listen to my own judgement and hope to some extent that alot of luck is on my side (never the smartest method of buying a motor!).

Everyone else, keep posting with bits on pricing etc, to help me tune my offer so i dont get carried away. Hopefully i will be owning this in the not to distant future, but i will tell say if not this one, it wont be long! The bug bit me for a 356 a loooooong time ago.

Luke

[912uk]

if you do the work your self then the costs are cheaper I do stress it's alot of work

I am in for so far

£4500 for the car
parts wise mainly rubber seals, carpet german square weave rubbermats ££$$ don't ask how much these where.. £1000
Brakes £500
Engine rebuild £700
Work done by other people £1200
Rottisory costs £225
Trolly costs £180
£8,305 so far.. More than I thought..

anyway

future costs
Body work and panels plus painting the underside etc £700
Gapping and final work ( outside help ) £1000
Tyres £550
Paint top coats £1000
Paint £600 ( already got it )
Powder coating £200
fund for every thing else £2000
£5500


£13,805

So If I say £15000 should have it sorted intotal

OK I bought the car 8 years ago so this helps alot

[davidppp]

Hello there.

To be very honest, its not worth even looking at it financially.

the purchase price will be a fraction of the total, unless you value your time in pence per hour.

All you need to ask yourself is whether you really want to do it.

If you have, say 20-25K cash you will be miles ahead buying one already done..

Contrary to popular opinion, the 356 is far more work and hassle than the 911 to do right..read ££££..

Just Don't.
David

[Helen]

Great advise David But its suprisingly hard to find REALLY good "restored" 356.
so many are amature DIY jobs full of filler and bodgd parts.


we have the added huge satifaction of knowing we have saved a lovely 356 for the future.
Thats Priceless

[john fletcher]

Hi,
There is no such car as a 356C with a Super 90 engine so something does'nt match there. A proper C engine is only 75 hp but is one of the best you can have. So make sure it's what you want i.e. a true 65 model with disc brakes.
Do not under-estimate the cost of finishing a car. From your description I would budget £20k and I've restored two C's. Unless you are very good at bodywork preparation a respray will be at least £5k assuming there are no major issues. For carpets and trim expect to pay £3k. For engine, brakes, suspension, gearbox bits you will spend £5k and alot more if you don't do the work yourself.
So what is a good LHD C worth? If you you go to California you could buy a superb example for £30k.
JF

[john fletcher]

Hi,
There is no such car as a 356C with a Super 90 engine so something does'nt match there. A proper C engine is only 75 hp but is one of the best you can have. So make sure it's what you want i.e. a true 65 model with disc brakes.
Do not under-estimate the cost of finishing a car. From your description I would budget £20k and I've restored two C's. Unless you are very good at bodywork preparation a respray will be at least £5k assuming there are no major issues. For carpets and trim expect to pay £3k. For engine, brakes, suspension, gearbox bits you will spend £5k and alot more if you don't do the work yourself.
So what is a good LHD C worth? If you you go to California you could buy a superb example for £30k.
JF

[Graham]

You've done the right thing by asking before you part with money!
Just bought a 356 RHD super 90 cab project,complete for 10k,if thats any help for a guide.

[Strictly]

Superb, all your replies are just what i need!

912uk, your costs are about what i would expect, as you are obviously doing 98% work yourself! Get in lad. But £700 for an engine rebuild, and £4500 for the intial car!! How did you do it! Good Work Captain!!

Carpets 1000, wow! I really hadnt thought about that! Also how come £1000 for the paint top coats? and £600 for the paint? How much is it a litre? Ar you using 2k or Celly? Are you doing this, or farming this out? I can spray (celly is quite forgiving), so i'll be ok here.

----

Thanks for the replies, i feel alot more confident now, and i know i wont go overboard with an offer because i've got to consider the rest of the costs and my poor depleting house deposit as a result! . I really hadn't considered the other costs too much, but i will factor this in, it looks like this could be a long project (because of having to spread the cost) but at least that means i will have the time to do a good job.

I havent actually seen the car yet, it might even be more or less together (i.e wiring loom, engine, brakes, suspension, etc, all in situ), so whos know maybe i could get an MOT without too much work and drive it for a few months, to put a smile on my face, then pull it off the road for a proper restoration.

Luke

[912uk]

The engine was ok just a stuck valave but it still needed to be stripped
Checked crank and polish, new gasket set and a few other things but it's just a strip and clean up more than anything My dear Friend John Lucas helped with this RIP..

As for the paint it's bloody expensive paint German stuff and it's the same as I did the 12 in.. I do all the prep work at home and then take to a mate where we do the top coats some 7-8 coats!! so normaly he has only charged me £250-500 in the past but as this is going to be a fussy one.. painting inside outside and underneath.. on a rotissery so I am marking up more money

Yep carpet sets are german square weave it's the onlyway

yes cheap buy in todays market but back then another £1500 would have got me a driving 356 A.. but I just went for the non runner for £1500 more Oh what a fool

the last Pre A I saw on ebay like mine went for $40,000!!!!!

[Hendrik Moulds]

I agree with the advice given, but have to reiterate what Mark said that if you do it yourself it will take a LONG TIME. I spent 6 months putting my B back together last winter, I thought it would be much easier and quicker than it was (bearing in mind I stripped it all out, boxed it and labelled it). Parts had gone missing (they reappeared after I had found a replacement), I had to replace some parts which had become damaged and I spent so long on trying to reconnect the wiring I gave up and got my friendly auto electrician to do it (it took him several hours). You will definitely have to do some of the same with this project.
Also it could get frustrating having to spend years? on the car whilst watching others drive theirs around and show them if it's your only one. I'm not trying to put you off doing the work, but you have to be sure you are up to it, especially if there is additional bodywork to be done.
£40k can easily be spent restoring/rebuilding a car properly, I know that from experience as well as Helen.
If you are serious about this car, get some good detailed photos and post them here, it might give an indication as to what you are up against. And don't make an offer if/when you go to see it, take your time and have a think about it, especially as you said it's not on the open market.

[Strictly]

Thata a good point, but i do want to do it, but your right a project that you think that will take six months, but takes years and years is a different matter, and i need to be sure i want that.

I will hopefully have an idea of price, and some pictures in the next day or so! I'm excited! But i hope i can do it!

Thanks for the help so far, its great having so much advice!

Luke

[RichiRich]

FYI - This one was up for £25k and went very quickly:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... ?id=672504


Some restoration examples from Continental Europe:

1965 356 €10950 - http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=bolhgflufwct

1962 356B €8500 - Link to 1962 356B

1963 356B €9500 - Link to 1963 356B