911's at Brands...

[speedysimon]

...I was at Brands this weekend, and was quite shocked (with all due respect to their drivers) how slow the 911's were, they were all top of the range 160/180 bhp 2 litre cars, but they were completely eclipsed by the Elans, ok, they were 26R's but also an S4 was quicker as well, but still they only have about 170 bhp, E types blew them away even the Marcos 1800 GT's left them standing, and would you believe a Healey 3000 was nearly 6 seconds a lap quicker (in qualifying) ...I looked very carefully at the 911's, and they all seemd to have the 'right' bits...now, back in 1967 a top 911 S/R would be right with the Elans regardless of the weather, and no Healey would ever keep up, so, I am at a loss, as looking at the Porsche tyres they were being pushed very hard...gentlemen, have I missed something here? any thoughts please?

[JB-L]

Perhaps it's the old "nut behind the steering wheel" problem?

Either that or the 911s are disadvantaged by "permissible" modfications rules, which can often having wildly differing effects on different cars, "slowing" the Porsches? Witness ERA racer performance versus their competition in historic racing.

[hot66]

if you look at historic rallying the 911's are the cars to beat. So maybe it is a 'rules & regulations' thing ?

[pmjt]

gentlemen, have I missed something here? any thoughts please?

Porsche always conquored endurance racing - since the little 1500cc 356 four cams, their advantage has never been performance - but endurance.

Look at the 'big' wins - always 24hrs or 1,000kms - and on these 911's just don't break.

A well set up Lotus will *always* be quicker through the corners - but whether it's still going after 100 laps is another matter

p

[Gary71]

I witnessed much the same at the Gold Cup at Oulton park last year, sounds like the same set of cars.
I didn't have a programme so became suspicious that I might actually be looking at a 912!

[one-two]

You guys are hilarious - anyone know why the blue car is running as number 1?

[one-two]

You guys are hilarious - anyone know why the blue car is running as number 1?

[veryporky]

Either because his name is schumi or he won last year's championship in a baby elan

[Dyno Soar]

That would be Alonso Keith.

I was speaking with a guy at Goodwood about this, who owned the Jim Clark 356. His theory was that better tyre, brake compound technology coupled with better engine build and tuning methods have transformed some of the cars that Porsche used race and beat quite regularly from mid field to super competitive.

He said Porsche cars couldn't benifit so much because of regulations and restrictions on them. Not sure about that myself though.
Another chap told me he felt that event organisers didn't want a situation where Porsche's were beating everything all the time.

Look at the difference in a Lotus Coventry Climax V's a RSK of the same sort of vintage. RSK's and 550's are super cars and kicked butt in their era but now are Lotus fodder, when you see them race at Goodwood.

I would agree with PMJT though... perhaps its the endurance of the little German cars that would see of its competitors over a long race.

Great thread...

[one-two]

It's #1 because it won the championship the previous year. So it must have beaten something, right? I don't know what happened in period, but nowadays it's hard for a 1000kg, 175bhp 911 to keep up with a 500kg 175bhp Elan. The comparison with other metal-bodied 2 litre cars is more meaningful and the way the class structure works.

[veryporky]

I suppose in period racing involved proper ex works cars that were pumping out an honest 100+bhp /litre with weights well under a ton. However the early 911 is not stacking up very well even compared to other production cars of a similar weight. If you look at the 70's roadsports category 911Es are being trounced by Datsun 240Zs and other similarly heavy cars. Perhaps it's down to ballasting and allowable mods. I also noticed that the ones racing seem mostly to be 911Es. I wonder how the 2.4S would stand up. All a bit depressing really.

[one-two]

Nope, have a look at the results - the car pictured in the thread was 7th in the 60s roadsports race, won its class by a mile and would have been higher overall in the 70s race! The Datsuns are very well prepped and very well-driven - there's no shame in being a second or so a lap slower with older and less powerful hardware. Stop dreaming and get on the track guys. Let's see what you can do.

[veryporky]

Done. People laughed at the idea when I raced a Polo a few years ago. Performance was more than respectable with slicks and a supercharger (G40) though.

[TheMonkey]

Morning Chaps!

Just saw this thread and thought it was quite interesting. I was also there on Sunday as it was my old man who is running the dark blue 911E in the 70's Roadsports.
Those of you who mentioned restrictions on Porsches are absolutely right. The guy who used to run the series is a die hard Lancia fan, in fact, thats his business although he races a Morgan Plus 8. He doesn't like Porsches and subsequently, there are restrictions in place. The previous owner of my dads car had a long drawn out battle just to let the car race in that series. I had dinner with some of the other competitors who all said that an 'E' was all they would allow to race, forget trying to enter an 'S', it will never happen.
As for the no.1 car, that is Robert Barrie. He has been racing with those guys for quite a while now and pretty much always wins his class. Steve Monk prepares his car and says they have about 140 - 145BHP from their engine which is pretty much FiA spec i think. The green JAZ 911 that was in the same race has 190BHP apparently, yet was only half a second quicker. Nut behind the wheel, wasn't it?!

And just so you know, my dads poor showing, and I'm sure he'll agree, was down to that being only his third ever race and his only one in the dry!
We also had some issues with the tyres rubbing the body work, hence the smoke pouring off the wheel at Paddock hill bend!
We have lots of development work to do on that car before it can start moving up the field, and my dad will also have to start developing his skills a bit more!

One more thing, the Datsuns might be quicker, but you may have noticed that one of them was on it's roof in the gravel at Clearways! To finish first, first you have to finish. As someone once said!

Ta ta!

Mark

[one-two]

Monkey, your comments are more realistic than many - but, for the record, the blue car's fastest lap was was over 2.5 secs quicker than the green one's! It's more than 145bhp mind you.