More scary cr@p from DVLA

[911hillclimber]

So:
You have an old car, say a 911.
It is rusty, and you have to repair it for an MoT peace of mind.
You cut the floor and the sills, good new replacement parts are fitted and welded using plug welds, MIG welding and even some panels glued in place.

You take the car to a garage and it passes with no issues, you then use the car.

That repaired shell, now nice and safe and strong is NOT original, it is modified, the welds are not factory, the quality is not factory (could be better).

No extra holes added etc BUT not at all original factory shell, it has been altered!
You have no idea how many spot welds were made per inch/foot in the factory (possibly the factory did not either back then)
Replacement panel may be a different gauge steel than factory, hand made parts could be less stiff than press formed parts thus the shell could flex more/less.

The car is 'factory original', but it is not!

This scenario is far more likely than a roll cage etc, AND under this silly 'ruling' a repair made in 1990 to a 1973 car (rust hole in a sill say) now would be deemed to drive that car to a Q plate.

As Gary said a page or two back, doubt there are many cars that are TOTALLY virgin original in the UK.

If you or another back in time drilled a wing to fit an aerial to the said 911 the car goes to Q plate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All rather absurd and if fully applied as a law would kill every real classic car in the UK dead, every repair shop, every supplier of parts, almost all value of said vehicles (still have a scrap value).
Doubt everyone would bother taking a Morris Minor to a garage to be IVA prepared.

Mind you, the rusty shell is not as factory spec either!

[Lightweight_911]

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'First world' problems ...

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[IanM]

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Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5 points

Suspension (front and back) - original 2 points

Axles (both) - original 2 points

Transmission - original 2 points

Steering assembly - original 2 points

^^^^That explains very clearly. Thanks.

You cut the floor and the sills, good new replacement parts are fitted and welded using plug welds, MIG welding and even some panels glued in place.

You take the car to a garage and it passes with no issues, you then use the car.

That repaired shell, now nice and safe and strong is NOT original, it is modified, the welds are not factory, the quality is not factory (could be better).

No extra holes added etc BUT not at all original factory shell, it has been altered!
You have no idea how many spot welds were made per inch/foot in the factory (possibly the factory did not either back then)
Replacement panel may be a different gauge steel than factory, hand made parts could be less stiff than press formed parts thus the shell could flex more/less.

The car is 'factory original', but it is not!

I think you misunderstood.

My interpretation is:
g3ngs2's post made no mention about welds, so it seems to me that a bodyshell can be repaired as long the replacement parts were OEM. i.e. Don't buy aftermarket brands.

Even though new production parts from the factory are not always exactly the same as NOS, they're still original parts. If it has a Porsche sticker, it is OEM no matter what. Take photos of your parts and stickers for proof. And keep your receipts. BTW, some Porsche parts are stamped with a unique triangle.

New welds are OK as long they're mainly in the same seams. Avoid excessive patching up (sometimes it's better to replace the whole panel).

I'm not a fan of floor sections.

As for holes that KS were referring to, weren't they talking about big holes drilled through the front and/or rear bulkhead for connecting the roll-cage to the suspension (full race style)?


Lastly, I have a question - Is it allowed to use 'S' parts in a non-S 911? Like oil lines through the sill and a front oil cooler? And what about RS or SC flares on an originally narrow body?

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[Jonny Hart]

^Trying to assess what is right or wrong is fruitless.

The point is the 'rules' are not clearly defined and the 'fun police' are enforcing them how they see fit. Essentially the DVLA refer to a 'policy' that has not been published so everyone is in the dark about what can and cannot be done.

What has gone before where the unwritten 'rules of the club' were based on fair play is now history - the club has a new proprietor. We used to be allowed to smoke a cigar in the lounge by the window, now any breach may result in expulsion.

[911hillclimber]

Yes, but it is the action taken in the past that condemns the car today.

If these 'rules' were to be made law today and a date given when such assessments were to be made then the past is respected. Here (it seems) the cars are sitting ducks, all of them.

As to welds, a panel held on by 3 weds /foot is weaker than 1 weld/inch in stressed areas. If the factory welds were 1 /inch and the car gets 3 /foot then that shell is compromised.



There are different types of roll cage, most 4 point, some 6 point a few multi as in a space frame there hole pass through front and rear bulkheads to reach suspension points, all are allowed and some mandatory in motorsport.

Some old cars have the 4 point cage for the look and bolt into/through the sills close to the A and B posts, many MGB's have these, Caterhams etc.
You drill the sections and then weld plates with captive nuts on to the sill creating 'flush' areas about as big as your hand over the areas.

I would argue a caged early vehicle is safer in an impact than one without.

You can present the car with any cage to IVA and it will be assessed.
How is this done to verify the cage is sound?
Today, you have to have a certificate for your cage in motorsport that is assessed on calculation. It is taken very seriously in race cars.

[g3ngs2]

^

The point is the 'rules' are not clearly defined and the 'fun police' are enforcing them how they see fit. Essentially the DVLA refer to a 'policy' that has not been published so everyone is in the dark about what can and cannot be done

..

Surely those rules not being defined cuts both ways. Policies which aren't published and if published should they lack guidance are open to being challenged.

That the current rules are published should mean that those are the rules of the game.


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[Jonny Hart]

^ You would think so but it’s just words on a government website.

A case in point is this page where it states that cars and minibuses over 10 years old (with 8 seats or less) are exempt from vehicle approval. That would seem pretty clear cut wouldn’t it?

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/exe ... e-approval

[911hillclimber]

^^^ Best post on this depressing thread ^^^

This is a formal set of rules issued by the Government, and although it suits many of us, it is a very hard n fast rule that sets the playing field dead level.

I'm keeping that one for my reply to my MP.

[IanM]

^^How old was that car?

[911hillclimber]

No idea, or I've missed the info.

Of course, there is a section in the Gov web site that contradicts the '10 year rule'.

You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:

built a vehicle
rebuilt a vehicle
radically altered a vehicle
reconstructed a classic vehicle
imported a vehicle
Vehicles that are in the M1 category include:

cars
left hand drive vehicles
personally imported vehicles

So, if you have rebuilt a vehicle you have to go to IVA.
The list given is a big worry, reconstruction of a classic vehicle especially.

I have just looked at the surprisingly useful help section in passing the IVA on the Gov web site.

With a 911 head on, the exterior is ok, fog lamp needed and possibly a problem with a Durant mirror.(?)
Inside may be harder. possibly the light switch protrusion on the dash. You have to imagine the 100 mm sphere test ball passing over the interior in the right zone.
A MOMO Prototipo wheel will fail, the alum spokes will be too sharp, the edges have to be min of 2.5mm rad. Not sure if a standard 911 wheel will pass!

Assessing the general engineering quality seems to be down to the opinion of the tester.

IVA is a real rats nest.
All the examples given/pictured are kit cars.

[Lightweight_911]

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As far as I'm aware, those requirements that you've quoted above are for people applying to register a car.

You already have a V5 in your name (& have had for many years) so, unless/until you are planning to sell the 911, I don't think you should be worrying ...

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[911hillclimber]

Hope you are right Andy.
Seems to be a lot of contradiction about it all and I hate ambiguity.

When I worked, we had to engineer to British Standards and even wrote a few which was an education.
It has to be blak oecwhite, no shades of grey allowed.

Anyway, enough from me, fed up with the lot of it!

[Jonny Hart]

^ You've just proved my point. It is impossible to make head nor tail of the rules when they are scattered about a website ( which can also be changed at a moment's notice ). Somewhere behind all this is a policy document yet nobody is allowed to see it!

[g3ngs2]

Someone brave, maybe the Federation (no idea who they are as first I heard of them was in this thread) should put a couple of use cases to the test, I mean it's not as though it's a potentially major threat to them or anything.



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[rhd racer]

^^How old was that car?

IIRC it was an RS2000, so 78-81 give it take


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