EV conversions and DVLA

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KS
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EV conversions and DVLA

Post by KS »

Yes, that 'old' chestnut... There's a website where you can see the result of FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) enquiries on any subject. It's https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/
A recent enquiry made on the subject of registering EV conversions is interesting. This is the important bit:

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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by 911hillclimber »

Then that kills the whole market in the UK dead?
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by inaglasshouse »

Thanks Keith.
911hillclimber wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:36 pm Then that kills the whole market in the UK dead?
It certainly does not help.
However, per other thread on here, it is quite possible to do an EV conversion without cutting, drilling or welding the monocoque or chassis. I sympathise hugely with those who had no idea that this was going to be the rule...

... but now it's clear, even though completely ridiculous (by the same logic you would need a Q plate having drilled holes to fit seat belts or a fire extinguisher to an otherwise 100% original car), it's do-able.
Of course, you may not have confidence that the rules will be the same next week, next year, or in 5 years time when you need an MoT.... risky business.
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by Jonny Hart »

Wow, this is going to cause a lot of unsafe conversions. I would really like to know how to properly secure 250kg of batteries without either a welded bracket or a bolted fixing to the chassis. Using factory holes for unintended uses may well be dangerous. I guess G- clamps, lorry straps and velcro is fine though!
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by inaglasshouse »

Jonny Hart wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:35 pm Wow, this is going to cause a lot of unsafe conversions. I would really like to know how to properly secure 250kg of batteries without either a welded bracket or a bolted fixing to the chassis. Using factory holes for unintended uses may well be dangerous. I guess G- clamps, lorry straps and velcro is fine though!
Depends on the application, but obviously take your point Jonny...
For G Wagen or LR, conventional wisdom seems to be that the battery pack goes where the engine used to be. So for the bottom mounts of the pack enclosure, the original engine mount brackets are all good. Top mounts, which will take lateral load in the case of sudden deceleration (eg hitting wall) can use suspension turrets, I think, but let's see. Being separate chassis, there are quite a lot of very chunky brackets onto which the body bolts, which may also be usable mounting points for some kind of battery or motor subframe.

Not so easy with, say, a Mini... or indeed a 914.

With all of that said, I'm not sure I fancy playing DVLA roulette. It would be a tad disappointing to lose a debate regarding the originality or otherwise of an 8mm hole, then to have the V5 compulsorily shredded ...
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by 911hillclimber »

You could possibly use the existing mounts as you say, but the batteries have to be boxed or framed, and those will be DIY welds, DIY designs and could be well attached but too weak in thier own right.
This was always the case with hot rodding, "you hold it, I'll weld it" approach that most times work, but can fail.

If drilling a hole sends you to IVA, then fitting a big sound system does too?
If building an RSR replica means cutting the front area of a 911 to fit an oil cooler and holes in the inner wings to run tubes, IVA??

DVLA are dangerous in that there seems to be a freedom to change anything without consultation.
It would be interesting to get the Federation of Historic Vehicles stance on this.
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by deano »

I can see the sense in not allowing modifications to the chassis or tub to be made without having someone formally check it afterwards via an IVA test. It seems a bit odd that you would be awarded a Q plate afterwards though, unless there are "sufficient" original major components remaining. It would be interesting to hear what their definition of "sufficient" is...

I think there is still plenty of mileage (pardon the pun) in limiting the EV powertrain weight to that of the original engine and ancillaries, so that the original mounts can be used without modifications. Does this really avoid the need for an IVA test ? I think we can be fairly certain that someone in DVLA will cotton onto the fact that some DIY high voltage battery system installations or high torque motors might be a tad dangerous...
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by KS »

On 911hillclimber's point, I'm afraid to say the FHVA isn't really interested as their main interest is preserving older vehicles in their original state. They have never really worked alongside hot rodders in the fight against restrictive regulations. And sadly most hot rodders adopt the 'f*ck it, I'm a rebel - I'll do what I want' attitude.

The reality of the situation is that there is no way the DVLA or whoever can keep tabs on everything - installing a roll cage, fitting seat belts, etc is of little consequence in the real world as there simply isn't the infrastructure to police or test every single vehicle. As things stand, it would rely on people telling them, 'Oh, by the way, I've drilled a hole in my car...'. As long as the vehicle is correctly insured, then there's little to worry about in reality, unless modifications can be proved to have caused an accident, fatal or otherwise. At that point, losing the right to a V5c is probably the least of your worries...

What does peak their interest is people trying to claim their hot rod is a VHI when it no longer has a stock chassis, engine, axles etc - many have had their V5c revoked, usually at the point where a new owner tries to register it and the details are put into the computer afresh. Also, where rodders have splashed their builds over social media or in magazine features, which are all monitored, for want of a better word, by DVLA (yes, some of the staff can and do read...). The same goes for EV conversions... What alerts DVLA in most cases in this instance is notification of the change of propulsion unit from ICE to electric, possibly in the hope that the change to 'clean' power will allow the owner to drive their car in ULEZ zones, etc. Had Vintage Volts not been on TV, there's a chance (albeit a slim one) that EV conversions wouldn't have attracted so much interest from DVLA. At least, not yet. EVs are the flavour of the moment and hence an easy target.

In reality, messing with cars the way we do will ultimately go into decline – younger generations are simply not so interested. DVLA could sit back and wait for the whole ICE car mod thing to effectively fizzle out - but EV conversions, that's hot news...

Oh, and if you own an Escort Mk2 rally car with its monocoque cut about to accommodate your new Billington engine, six-speed sequential transmission and five-link rear axle, don't be surprised when MSUK won't renew your logbook – it appears that things are changing, almost certainly as a result of DVLA interest, causing concern among those who have rallied such cars for a number of years.
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by jwhillracer »

Millington engines, unless you have a stinking head cold as well this morning, KS!

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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by 911hillclimber »

In the 70s I built a 1937 Y Type Ford with a chopped down roof, a Capri V6 with auto box, rear suspension from an S type Jaguar and front suspension from HA Viva
I made a new chassis built and welded to the original and a full roll cage.
Did 23k miles, never broke anywhere.
It was fabulous and now I am so lucky to have done all that.
Kept its original reg too, all declared to the DVLA back then, all accepted.
Now in the USA somewhere.

This used to be a free thinking country!
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by KS »

jwhillracer wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:37 pm Millington engines, unless you have a stinking head cold as well this morning, KS!

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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by jwhillracer »

Yes, and they go every bit as well as she did - allegedly 😉
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by sisu »

Here in Finland we are going the other way. They are relaxing the Rules, as long as the weight balance is not effected you are ok.
In New Zealand they have a reasonable balance. The car has to be certified and you get a plate with the mods on the firewall. So modifying a car that has been inspected by an engineer is ok.
However there are only 2 EV certified inspectors in NZ.

I thought Britain was a sovereign nation and all that?
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by sisu »

KS wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:43 am
In reality, messing with cars the way we do will ultimately go into decline – younger generations are simply not so interested. DVLA could sit back and wait for the whole ICE car mod thing to effectively fizzle out - but EV conversions, that's hot news...
I wouldn't be so pessimistic, EVs are great at doing a specific job and to me this is like the direction Full size Luxury Car of the late 60's early 70s in America went. Wider, longer, gimmicky doors or features. Ever larger engines. The 1970 Imperial LeBaron 4 door hardtop was as evolved as a 911 at the time. Its just that role had different targets in the same way a Taycan is not a 911.

To me EV conversions using the Tesla motor as the modern day Hemi is great if you want to go drag racing. But not everywhere went in that direction because not everywhere is Los Angeles.

I like where the Ferrari 296 has gone, a hybrid that in fills the bits where the engine so highly tuned that it would be to 'cammy' to drive on the road. I don't think guys messing with cars is going to fade away. But I don't expect them to want the same cars as previous generations. You don't see T-Buckets anymore because all the car enthusiasts are gone. Things just moved into a different direction.
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Re: EV conversions and DVLA

Post by Nine One One »

So if the Mini factory is doing bespoke conversions of old Mini’s to EV are they then subject to a Q plate and IVA test, or does DVLA just overlook this because it is an official factory conversion??

https://www.mini.co.uk/en_GB/home/mini- ... arged.html

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mini/3571 ... conversion
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