DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Jonny Hart wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:32 pm ^ Yep, it’s what I was ranting on about a couple of weeks ago.

DVLA have put a whole industry in jeopardy because they have no way of dealing with classic EV conversions.

Risky business...
It's tempting to push on with the G, with a completely bolt-in solution (which was the intention anyway), and hope / expect that it will be fine on the "radically modified" points system since it will easily tot up sufficient points (steering, axles, chassis) to keep its identity and reg.
Or could change course and do the Ratty Range Rover while the dust settles. It's practically worthless anyway so no big deal if it ends up as scrap...
Hmmm....
Maybe even eee-56... that could be bolt in, no problem at all,including keeping the gearbox.
Hmmm...

Agree, I would carry on with the G. Just don’t apply to change the fuel type!

I suggest you write to Baroness Vere of Norbiton drawing the matter to her attention. Failing that, your own mp should oblige in bringing the matter to her attention. I personally think a well-thought out correspondence outlining the problem and suggesting a common-sense solution, to somebody having the authority to shape policy, can go a good way to getting a decent outcome.

I would suggest that they introduce a cut-down IVA specifically for EV conversions, which can be taken by vehicles above a certain age provided the conversion meets certain limitations, and tests only for e.g. structural mounting of the new battery and drivetrain, and electrical safety.

Another matter I have a little experience of, is how an industry membership organisation for e.g. the classic EV conversion industry can take a leading role in guiding policy. Somebody taking it upon themselves to get a few suppliers together and step up into that role could suddenly find themselves in pole position for government funding on all sorts of advisory matters.

I wrote to my local MP a few years ago about modified cars and the MoT and historic status.
He replied in days.
He sent my letter to the then Transport minister and a group of MPs at Westminster.
Got a detailed response from all of them.
Not sure if that affected Policy, but I was not ignored.

RobFrost wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:58 pm I suggest you write to Baroness Vere of Norbiton drawing the matter to her attention. Failing that, your own mp should oblige in bringing the matter to her attention. I personally think a well-thought out correspondence outlining the problem and suggesting a common-sense solution, to somebody having the authority to shape policy, can go a good way to getting a decent outcome.

I would suggest that they introduce a cut-down IVA specifically for EV conversions, which can be taken by vehicles above a certain age provided the conversion meets certain limitations, and tests only for e.g. structural mounting of the new battery and drivetrain, and electrical safety.

Another matter I have a little experience of, is how an industry membership organisation for e.g. the classic EV conversion industry can take a leading role in guiding policy. Somebody taking it upon themselves to get a few suppliers together and step up into that role could suddenly find themselves in pole position for government funding on all sorts of advisory matters.

All good advice, but this has all been going on for a long time already.

When I started my researching my EV build, I spoke to a respected EV guy who was on a panel having discussions with the DVLA to establish guidelines for conversions. That was seven years ago!

inaglasshouse wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:58 pm

Jonny Hart wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:32 pm ^ Yep, it’s what I was ranting on about a couple of weeks ago.

DVLA have put a whole industry in jeopardy because they have no way of dealing with classic EV conversions.

Risky business...
It's tempting to push on with the G, with a completely bolt-in solution (which was the intention anyway), and hope / expect that it will be fine on the "radically modified" points system since it will easily tot up sufficient points (steering, axles, chassis) to keep its identity and reg.
Or could change course and do the Ratty Range Rover while the dust settles. It's practically worthless anyway so no big deal if it ends up as scrap...
Hmmm....
Maybe even eee-56... that could be bolt in, no problem at all,including keeping the gearbox.
Hmmm...

The G-Wagen isn't a monocoque, so as long as you don't cut or drill the chassis - adding welded on brackets is fine, apparently - you'll be fine.

Trouble is… a sensible person might suggest some form of modified IVA where the original body can be maintained and an assessment of the battery mounting structure + any modifications to suspension & brakes etc. Or something else along those lines.

But anything like that would require new legislation.

Instead you have senior officials, who have an opinion on EV conversations, that are documenting a policy that can be shaped to fit inside the existing laws, which that official can’t change.

So they decide that any EV conversation automatically qualifies as “highly modified” and therefore the existing law is used to prevent them being used on the road unless they meet IVA / Q plate standards. Even if that means stretching the interpretation of the points system way beyond the spirit of the legislation.

Bruce M wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:56 am Trouble is… a sensible person might suggest some form of modified IVA where the original body can be maintained and an assessment of the battery mounting structure + any modifications to suspension & brakes etc. Or something else along those lines.

But anything like that would require new legislation.

Instead you have senior officials, who have an opinion on EV conversations, that are documenting a policy that can be shaped to fit inside the existing laws, which that official can’t change.

So they decide that any EV conversation automatically qualifies as “highly modified” and therefore the existing law is used to prevent them being used on the road unless they meet IVA / Q plate standards. Even if that means stretching the interpretation of the points system way beyond the spirit of the legislation.

Agree, that seems to be exactly what's happening.

I think for now the sensible option for me is:
1) proceed with zero chassis mods. I don't need to modify anyway, there are plenty of pre-existing decent attachment points. Just be extra careful and photograph the lack of mods and non-invasive mountings
2) keep all ICE parts, so can be reversed if necessary
3) when complete, take a look at the real life situation with DVLA and decide whether it's prudent to apply to have the fuel type changed

Re point 3 I suspect that, at some point, there will be successful legal challenge to over-zealous application of the points system. Perhaps by a professional converter (or consortium of same) which has carefully built something 100% compliant with the points system and (rightly) contests incorrect application of the current law. The working guidelines will then change. Or new sensible legislation and testing of conversions will appear but, as others have said, that might not be any time soon...

Might still do the Range Rover first as a test mule.

Is this car EV modified with an IVA Q plate, all official etc so bad?

911hillclimber wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:29 pm Is this car EV modified with an IVA Q plate, all official etc so bad?

Graham,

If I understand correctly, the main issue is that there's zero chance of this (old) car, or any old car, passing the IVA. When you head down that route, you are held to modern standards for pedestrian safety etc. This being the case the only option is to stick with same identity as an old car, get the fuel type changed, and not fall foul of the "radically modified" rules. Or just convert and don't notify DVLA, but as previously discussed that's dodgy and I am not keen.

Those more expert than me, please let me know if I've got the IVA point wrong.

Project is on hold for now. G is in daily use in OG diesel configuration. I like it a lot.

Cheers, Richard.

Yes, take your point. Best to get everything 'above board'.
I just thought the car would be modern enough to get past, but IVA gives me the shivers.

Do they allow you to put a car through a trial or unofficial IVA to see what it might fail on before embarking on the project?


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inaglasshouse wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:28 pm If I understand correctly, the main issue is that there's zero chance of this (old) car, or any old car, passing the IVA. When you head down that route, you are held to modern standards for pedestrian safety etc. This being the case the only option is to stick with same identity as an old car, get the fuel type changed, and not fall foul of the "radically modified" rules. Or just convert and don't notify DVLA, but as previously discussed that's dodgy and I am not keen.

A couple of points: first it is absolutely possible to get 'any old car' to pass IVA. Check Mark Harley's Ford Pop street rod in the photo, as a radical example of what's possible. Second, saying the only option is 'to stick with same identity as an old car, get the fuel type changed, and not fall foul of the "radically modified" rules' is not true. The very fact that you notify DVLA of a change of fuel type (and hence taxation class) will alert them.

Looking at cars shown on the website of a certain well-known and much publicised conversion company shows that around half (or more) are still registered at DVLA as having their original engines. Which isn't that smart when you use them for publicity on line or on TV...

KS wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:05 am

inaglasshouse wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:28 pm If I understand correctly, the main issue is that there's zero chance of this (old) car, or any old car, passing the IVA. When you head down that route, you are held to modern standards for pedestrian safety etc. This being the case the only option is to stick with same identity as an old car, get the fuel type changed, and not fall foul of the "radically modified" rules. Or just convert and don't notify DVLA, but as previously discussed that's dodgy and I am not keen.

A couple of points: first it is absolutely possible to get 'any old car' to pass IVA. Check Mark Harley's Ford Pop street rod in the photo, as a radical example of what's possible. Second, saying the only option is 'to stick with same identity as an old car, get the fuel type changed, and not fall foul of the "radically modified" rules' is not true. The very fact that you notify DVLA of a change of fuel type (and hence taxation class) will alert them.

Looking at cars shown on the website of a certain well-known and much publicised conversion company shows that around half (or more) are still registered at DVLA as having their original engines. Which isn't that smart when you use them for publicity on line or on TV...

Keith

Many thanks! I will need to investigate IVA properly, it seems.

Re not telling DVLA about fuel type change - Indeed, possible, but (as you suggest) not clever at all in my view. DVLA guidance says you "must" notify them. In the worst case scenario of an accident (even if completely unrelated to the electric aspect) I think it's asking for trouble. Even if I had told my insurer of the change there would be legitimate questions around roadworthiness and about my own attitudes to my duty of care to other road users. I would not fancy discussing such matters in court...

Cheers, Richard.