KS's hillclimbing odyssey

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jwhillracer
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by jwhillracer »

Check with Tony Freeman before you go ahead with the roll bar to make sure that it’s OK, since it won’t be FIA spec ……. 🤔
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

I will look into it - been going through blue book with fine tooth comb and as there is no requirement for a full cage in Series Production there's nothing written down about such an addition other than to say any ROPS cannot be used to strengthen suspension mounting points etc. It's a bit of a grey area, TBH.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

OK, here we go. FIA Appendix K for homologated car (which the 914 was/is) in historic motorsport shows the roll bar:

Image

Image

Let's see if that helps...
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by 911hillclimber »

KS
Really do your homework on the cage, the design, tube dial and the tube wall thickness.
Fact the cage is there will attract attention.
The FIA data may not say all is well.
I went through a lot about my cage in the Lola, a feature I had to have.
Found out the cage had been accepted by the RAC in 1978.
The MS uk found the original approval in a dusty filing cabinet..
I bought a correct certificate from them of it for £15 to prove the ROPS is valid.

That saved me around £2000.


Take care or you will need to remove to race!
ROP is a sensitive topic.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

Valid points although I am aware of tubing dimensions from my drag racing. Did ask a Scrutineer about the aluminium half cage in my 912 bearing in mind there would have been no requirement to have any ROP in the class and he said no problem as it’s not a prerequisite. But if it turns out to be a problem, then it won’t happen. Simple.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by rhd racer »

My 914 cage was made by Safety Devices (don’t think they are still around) but was if the same design as shown in the picture you posted Keith.

The only points I would add to those already;

- the 914 cockpit is small, and adding a cage makes it smaller. That makes getting seat position right, and well clear of the cage is a challenge. I know we are different heights Keith, and that will help but you need plenty of room for the seat to flex in an accident. A seat with ‘ears’ is very, very tight (I really recommend one with a cage to prevent your head moving and hitting something hard)
- my cage had bolt in door bars. These were great for setting up so I could get in and out, but a scrutineer pointed out that in a shunt they can drop and become useless. So once position set I welded one side of the clamp in situ
- you may need a removable wheel to get in and out (well, very likely). That will move your steering wheel much closer to you (I needed a collapsible boss which extended several inches) creating a rally driver seat position, I actually quite like that, but it’s not for everyone
- on steering wheel bosses, there are some cheap copies made of chocolate out there so buy carefully. I have the ball bearing style one and it is fantastic - will happily send you the details

I Hope that helps. Not to put you off at all (you are worth protecting!) but I would not consider the one modification in isolation of the others

Cheers
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

You can still buy an off the shelf (well, to order) 914 cage from Safety Devices (http://www.safetydevices.com/motorsport ... /418/1246/). However, I really don't want a full cage in the car for reasons of space in that the 914 will always be a dual-purpose vehicle. But if an original factory-style roll-over bar and door bars as I planned is a problem, (even though no form of ROP is required in the class), then I'll drop the idea. After all, a 914 finished sixth overall and first in class at Le Mans without any added ROP whatsoever... :)
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by keith fellowes »

Safety Devices are still around in Bury St Edmunds and would be my first port of call for a cage.
When I rallied with Moggy in his 914 it had a full cage with door bars and I don't remember it being tight in there
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by 911hillclimber »

As I said, ROPS is a touchy subject...

The tube must have some 'forgiving' cover against your helmet striking it, Demon Tweeks sell the stuff and that in itself is quite thick, mine is 15mm thick on the Lola, FIA approved stuff.
I have thicker but softer covering on my 911, and the 911 is huge inside compared to the 914. There is plenty of space.

Scrutineers are a varied group of people. You need to talk to the eligibility level, and even then opinions will vary as the Blue Book is not totally black or white.

Safey is a big subject today, different in the 70's.
Incidentally, i have only been asked to produce my ROPS Certificate 2 times in 4 years.

It is the drivers' responsibility to drive a correct car, the Scrutineer is not there to validate the design, but may ask for proof it is correct.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by rhd racer »

Glad Safety Devices are still around - they were super helpful when I bought mine.

Sorry, I didn’t clock that the front section was never on the cards Keith. Should be fine if you have the diameter of the diagonal bars behind your standard seat position.

I am 6’2” (well maybe I was 10 years ago!) and with the front hoop I was constrained with an eared seat and the front hoop in that the seat would only safely go in one position, so I learned to live with that. In some respects, the design of the ll FIA race cage in the Boxster is worse and tighter still. In any event, as I’ve got older I’ve come to be super careful with contact points to cage, and also proper FIA padding instead of pipe lagging!
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'You see Paul, hill climbing is like making love to a beautiful woman. You get your motor running, check your fluids, hang on tight and WHOA..30 seconds later it's all over!' Swiss Tony
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

Well, where were we? Ah yes, the ROPS...

After studying similar installations on the 'net, it was over to Steve Kerti at Classic Fabrications (without doubt, one of the very finest early Porsche bodywork and fabrication specialists around) where after a cup of tea or two we came up with a plan. Even though the class does not require any form of ROPS, meaning there are no specific rules to adhere to (and, yes, this has been checked out with an MSUK source who pointed out that you can legitimately run a Mazda MX-5 or an Audi TT convertible in the production classes with factory-fitted roll-over bars that are woefully inadequate in terms of roll-over safety), I decided to use the latest spec ROPS tubing 45mm x 2.5mm wall on the basis that safer is better. On the 914/6GT resource page www.https://pbase.com/9146gt there is a sequence showing how somebody built a similar ROPS, which saved us a lot of head scratching, particularly in relation to the mountings for the main hoop, which requires some clever planning around the junction between the sill and the bulkhead.

Image

Anyway, to cut a long story short, Steve did his stuff with the TIG welder, with regular updates teasing me, and finally informed me that it had been painted and I could come up to his Devon workshop (Dunkeswell, near Honiton) to refit the interior and the ROPS. I spent some time redoing the rear bulkhead carpeting (with van liner in grey) and trimming the Lakewell carpet around the mounting points (that hurt, cutting chunks out of a rather expensive carpet on each sill...), in addition to installing mounts for a full harness on the passenger side (Sarah will hate that :) ). Finally it was all done and, with suitable padding added, I was more than happy with the end result.Yes the roof fits, yes I can still access the roof catches to remove it if I want, and yes there is plenty of space between my helmet and the main hoop (about 8ins, or so).

Next step is to get the bloody thing to fire up! I suspect that some wiring has been disturbed when working in the engine bay...

ImageImage

Once it's back home, next will be the front suspension bushes and steering rack, and then a splash of paint on the front and rear lids. It's all go...
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by 911hillclimber »

Spot on.
In my experience (and of others) if you fit it MSuk will assess it to the Blue Book whether you need it or not for the class.

The alternative padding to the large dia foam is the much harder (!) FIA protection at about 1/2 the diameter and a million times more expensive.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

911hillclimber wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:13 pm Spot on.
In my experience (and of others) if you fit it MSuk will assess it to the Blue Book whether you need it or not for the class.
What else can you do other than speak to an MSUK eligibility scrutineer and follow his advice? Which is what I did before starting this...

In terms of design and materials, the latter exceed any requirements for a car of this age. Rear supports are not feasible without breaking two cardinal rules of Production class: one is that they would need to pass through the rear window – you can't replace any glass with Lexan or other polycarbonate material, and the other is that no part of the ROPS may be tied into suspension mountings, which would be the case on a 914. Forward facing supports are acceptable, but any bar that encroaches on the door opening may not be located higher than half way up the door opening itself.
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by KS »

OK, back to business... The car is still up at Steve Kerti's (well, down at Steve Kerti's as far as most people on DDK are concerned!) as, apart from anything else, it wouldn't start. In an effort to find out why, I hooked up the ecu to the laptop and...nothing. The laptop wouldn't even recognise the existence of said ecu. Clearly, this would make any further problem solving impossible, so I messaged DTA and told them of my woes. Their answer was to send the unit back to them (the second time in six months...) and let them check it out. This I did and a week later I chased them up to see if they had found anything. 'An unexpected component failure' was the answer, but no more information. I finally got it back a few days later and from the ID label on the side could see that both the hardware and software had been upgraded compared to what I'd sent back.

This is the third software upgrade in a very short life and I have to say I'm not overly impressed. My cheapy Megasquirt ecu I had on El Chucho proved to be reliable and easy to tune in comparison, even though many 'serious' tuners look down on them. I wish now I had bought an Omex 600 that I had been offered at about half price, but Graham was an agent for DTA and liked working with them. However, a year or two back, DTA superceded their tried and tested S-series ecus with the new T-series (mine's a T2), but were immediately hit with supply problems when Chinese 'chips' became scarce due to the pandemic. I understand that early T-series units were fitted with an alternative chip, but I'm not entirely sure what is (or was) in mine. Can't help but wonder if the 'unexpected component failure' was related to this, or not... Funny thing is, a large proportion of the hillclimb fraternity run DTA ecus, but I suspect most are of the old S-series type...

Anyway, next week I will go back to the workshop and plug it in, say a few prayers and turn the key. All I want is a car that starts and idles, hot or cold. Is it too much to ask?

As the car was littering up Steve's workshop (along with, I think, five 911 restorations, five or six 356s, a '67 Camaro and Steve's '67 Chevy Nova), I've taken the opportunity to do a few little jobs. These include swapping the hideous 1980s-style mirrors for some correct 914 repros, which look a hundred times better, and getting Steve to paint the front and rear lids for a whole new look for the season. After that, I'll get onto the front suspension bushes and steering rack swap – eventually.

Image

The car is due to be on display at the VolksWorld Show at Sandown Park March 18/19th, so I need to do some planning. It's all go (except the engine).
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Re: KS's hillclimbing odyssey

Post by Bootsy »

Look forward to seeing the updates and yes, probably worth trying to get it to start too :P
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